So, should I shell out $13.33 for a complete set? I dislike the idea of dice tending toward one side. My 3.5E Bard kept rolling horribly low on knowledge checks, and now I have an idea as to why... But just look at those sexy edges...they call to me. Thoughts? Thanks, /tg/lycerides.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
These things are just dice. They aren't any different from other dice, except that they are more expensive.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
I don't get it.
Anonymous
Guys. Normal dice are tumbled, and unbalanced. If you've played tabletop before with a lot of dice, you know for a fact that certain cheap dice always roll to a certain side. These dice are not tumbled. They're not cheap. You can tell by the edges. Casino dice, for example, can be held side to side without a gap. So can these.
Anonymous
I went to the website and found the following: 1-sided (spherical) 3-Sided Dice (d3) 5-sided 7-sided And then suffered Drain Bamage from trying to comprehend their shape. I think I might order some to see what they look like and how they roll. God damn they are good salesmen.
Anonymous
>>3079452 So can Chessex, and Chessex won't rape you until you bleed for good dice. Plus the clip mark on GS dice is still going to skew your rolls. Get some plastic and get a machine shop to mill you some dice the way casino dice are made instead if you really want to pay out the ass for dice.
Anonymous
>>3079468 Clip mark doesn't. The dude spent 20 minutes talking about how it doesn't, and I watched the whole damn thing.
Not having the clip mark and being tumbled is worse than having it.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079465 >1-sided die *facepalm*
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079468 Maybe I like the rape....
Also, I would make my dice out of DIAMOND.
Anonymous
They also say you can take a model grade sandpaper and sand it down though I'm not sure how that affects the rolls if it does at all. I'm also tempted to pick some up - it's not that expensive after all.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079492 If you're a robot. I don't know anyone who would sit there and make every edge perfect.
These dice are plain sexy.
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 05:55:00 No. 3079540 Report >>3079465 Probably like this. That's how most manufacturers do it anyhow.
>>3079478 The promo is generic bullshit that most of the big name dice companies were doing before. This guy is just still doing it.
Anonymous
>>3079478 No, the clip mark still does impact rolls. Not once in that video did he say otherwise. He just said tumbled dice are worse, but then didn't show any statistical proof of this. In fact, he even compared his dice to casino dice, then quickly mentioned that his dice AREN'T made like casino dice. Casino dice are machined, not molded. As such, they have no clip mark and roll evenly.
And guess what? Those sharp edges chip like all hell. I've had a couple in my dice bag for ages (I never use 'em because of the clip marks), and over time they've gotten chipped and rounded just from having been in my dice bag without even having been used in four years. For about the money you'd spend on these Gamehoax dice, you could probably get a custom set machined at a machine shop.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079540 That's incredibly boring. But I appreciate you satisfying my interest and saving me asstons of money on dice I will never use.
Just buy a portable RNG. Example: $30 calculator with a bounded RAND function. Congrats, you now own a perfect set of dice ranging from d0 to d-infinity.
Anonymous
>>3079549 Well then, could you recommend a company that produces higher quality dice if Gamescience isn't worth it?
Anonymous
>>3079570 Not a calculator, dice.
The internet doesn't understand sentimental value over practicality.
Anonymous
A 3 sided is easy. It's a triangle.
Anonymous
>>3079465 >1 sided-die Oh look a theoretical object. Oh shi--
Anonymous
>>3079549 There's nothing funny about those dice.
My mom made my include my little brother, after he complained to her enough. It seemed like it would drag things down, but he was actually pretty great. He really brought a different attitude towards the whole thing than any of my friends. But then one of the other players showed up to play with one of these new kinds of dice. He explained on and on about them, and no one really cared, of course, but he was so insistant on showing them off. I guess he'd just bought them, you know? So, as a demonstration, he throws a dice hard across the table, and it skittered right off the edge. It flew across my little brother's throat, slashing the jugular. It was the most horrible scene you can even imagine. Blood everywhere. He died before anyone even could get their phone out to call 911.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079596 Sides. They need to be rounded.
Anonymous
>>3079572 I don't know abut higher quality, but I get incredibly random results off Chessex, and I tend to tessellate my dice as I play rather than stacking them, and I don't notice any problems in terms of unevenness on my Chessex dice at all. Or, again, you could get some dice custom-made at a machine shop with a CNC router.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079602 I see you have never seen a mobius strip. 1 edge 1 side.
Anonymous
>>3079570 Computers can't do random. I'm sure someone will come along and gladly explain why.
Anonymous
>>3079622 thems computers average da rollz!
I needz my watermelon!
Anonymous
If they're not made of a self-sharpening material (e.g. uranium-238 or obsidian) or extremely hard (diamond, nanocarbon, possibly dragonforce) they will stay crisp and unbiased for a very short time, maybe one campaign tops. I hope you are taking this into account.
Sir Lanternthief
Quoted By:
>>3079604 That's not funny, my brother died that way.
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:11:00 No. 3079637 Report >>3079622 They can be as effectively random as a die. It just doesn't match up the common view of what it means to be random.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079612 Was originally looking into Chessex. I'll go back to them, then. Cheers.
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3079622 Yes they can. Electronic noise RNG and such.
Calculators are a different matter but for the purpose of gaming, and as a replacement for non-theoretical dice, they should be fine so long as somebody does not bring along another computer to precalculate the result.
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:17:00 No. 3079673 Report >>3079663 The only real problem is how the random method was written, and probably who did it.
Anonymous
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:19:00 No. 3079677 Report Quoted By:
Anonymous
>>3079622 No one complains about dice not being random. They complain about dice having uneven distributions of results. RNGs can easily do even distributions. It doesn't matter if it's random or pseudorandom, since there's no implicit structure to the order of the rolls.
>>3079582 You'd think people concerned with sentimental value wouldn't be arguing over matters of weighting and machine-tooled precision.
Anonymous
>>3079633 No they just go off the system clock and generate a number from it. Computers are by their design unable to produce random things as they would be unable to function otherwise. It's like making your car randomly do different speeds and expecting you to drive it right.
Anonymous
>>3079635 Strange, dude-guy, the one who makes these super-dice-thingamabobs, was in a movie on youtube of his last visit to some convention thingy. He had one that had been donated to him by a player that had used it for two years, through multiple campaigns. That super-dice-thingamabob still had its sharp edges with only very slight degradation, even when compared to other, unused, super-dice-thingamabobs.
Purposefully vague and rambling. Yes.
Anonymous
>>3079687 I trust everything a salesman tells me as well, they wouldn't lie to us right?
Anonymous
>>3079673 How does one convert true random input into pseudorandom output? Note:convert, not disregard input and output whatever.
Anonymous
>>3079695 If a salesman tells you a lie it's a crime. There's something called the Better Buisness Buero that has agents like the FBI that will come and arrest them for that. That's whaat I heard, at least.
Anonymous
>>3079710 The BBB isn't a branch of the government, its actually supported by companies who pay to be a part of it.
Anonymous
>>3079698 Your question does not make sense.
Anonymous
>>3079679 Smartest person ITT.
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:29:00 No. 3079755 Report >>3079698 I'm not sure what you're asking exactly.
A typical method for randomness is like what
>>3079680 said. It's effectively random purely because a person doesn't operate fast enough to control the result.
Anonymous
Salespeople make careers out of the ability to distort the truth. I saw Ron Poppiel on an infomercial last night promising "THESE KNIVES ARE THE BEST KNIVES YOU'LL EVER HOLD!", and it's technically not a lie because it's implied that the people he's talking to won't pay the money needed for a better knife.
>>3079687 And it could technically be true, but here's the thing: anecdotal evidence is weighted more heavily by most people than statistical evidence because people think of exceptions to what they're told is likely. That one die may have lasted well, but the guy who owned it may not have rolled it all that much. That two-year campaign could have met only once a month. That die may have just lasted exceptionally well... but that doesn't mean your dice will fare just as well.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
UNSKILLED WORKERS THEY'RE OUT TO MAKE MONEY SHARP EDGES
Anonymous
Quoted By:
I'm going to buy Gamescience dice as soon as I fucking can.
Anonymous
get the dice elder gods reccomend
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079728 There's also suing for fraud. But that puts weight on the consumer to prove the fraudulent claim.
It's kinda hard to prove that a die is less accurate now than when you bought it by rolling it dozens of times, since each time it gets rolled it might be wearing down the edges.
Then there's his statement that he uses "the best materials" and doesn't round out the edges, which, supposedly, gives the dice an egg-like shape, making them favor one side as opposed to giving equal access to all sides. Meh, personal preference, really.
Anonymous
>>3079730 >>3079755 When tripfag with long name brought up the issue of programming in
>>3079673 , I thought he meant it as a possible problem of a hardware RNG (like
random.org , or an Atari electronic noise random number generator). I was wondering if one could produce non-random output from these inputs without loss of information.
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:42:00 No. 3079824 Report >>3079800 >long name Maybe I should use that. Thoughts?
>I was wondering if one could produce non-random output from these inputs without loss of information. The output is just a numeric value. You would only suffer such a loss, if the space you're storing it in has less bits allocated than the length of the actual value.
Anonymous
>>3079767 First, let me get this out of the way, I do not own gamescience dice. I never have, but would, given the chance, shell out the thirteen dollars to buy them since no stores anywhere nearby sell actual dice sets aside from WoD d10s. Even the stores that sell D&D books(Hastings, Books-A-Million, etc.).
I'm also just as likely to give up twelve or fifteen bucks for a normal set plus 12d6 from chessex. They have cooler looking dice too, so that's also a deciding factor.
I was just giving information I had and you make a good point. But there's a lot I've forgotten in the three to four days since I've seen them. Does someone have the links to the youtube videos?
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:46:00 No. 3079852 Report Quoted By:
Anonymous
>>3079824 It's great. Nobody will ever read it all anyway so you might want to add a tl;dr or two somewhere, possibly at the beginning.
Guess I'm too tired to function in a second language. What I'm trying to say is if you have a random value (say from atmospheric noise) then there is no such function of that value whose value would depend on that value but also would be predictable, so I don't see the problem in
>>3079673 .
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 06:54:00 No. 3079898 Report Quoted By:
>>3079872 I'm just referring to a player who brings in a prog that he just happened to write and starts using it. I would want to see the code, and make sure he doesn't just overwrite it with a version he can cheat using.
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3079549 What kind of idiot puts sharp-edged dice in a rattly dice bag?
>>3079635 Maybe if you do what
>>3079549 did.
>>3079736 I agree. Random is when you throw the any die, even an egg-shaped one. Even probability is when no result has a greater probability than any other result. Even probability is really hard to achieve. But that doesn't mean we can't get as close as possible.
Chase !!fHYSvIRxSZx
Quoted By:
>>3079465 They were all designed by Zocchi, and he really knows his stuff. I know they have crazy shapes, but rest assured, he tried all of the other possible configurations and found the best one. And yeah, watch Zocchi's presentation on his dice. It's on YouTube somewhere, and it really shows how much he cares about this stuff.
Anonymous
I was at the FLGS today, and looked at some of the Chessex Precision Edge Dice,
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Raw/raw_dice_home.htm I noticed that some of the ones I saw had some kind of chipping of irregularity on the edge.
anyone have these dice that can comment on em? I just use plain chessex dice and haven't noticed any irregularity in rolling that can't be attributed to noise, but I haven't done any statistical tests.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3079955 The sort of idiot with a shitload of other dice that doesn't feel like handling a couple kinda-meh dice with kid gloves all the goddamn time. They're DICE. They should be durable, and surviving a dice bag is expected of them.
Anonymous
>>3079973 It's the clip mark from the molding process. Gamefraud dice will have the same mark.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080003 Oh, so that's what y'all have been talking about.
I find it difficult to believe that the clip mark does not impact rolls significantly. Of course, until someone tests them, we don't know for sure.
Ifuritasfan !!v09L1F0F0uU
Just to add one thing to the discussion. The chessex dice that have "precision edges" are actually Game Science Dice. They had a contract with Lou Zocchi to produce precision edge dive in a number of transparent colors and in glow in the dark plastic. So just buy some chessex precision edge dice. You'll find that they too have the clip mark. Also, here's the thing on that clip mark. File the fucker off and your dice is unaffected by it. Why? because the issue isn't the surface of each polygon of the dice, it's the edges of the dice. Almost none of the energy of the dice throw is eaten up by surface friction, it's the impact of the edges and if all the edges are geometrically the same, you end up with better random rolls. But ultimately here's the thing about Gamescience dice. All plastics are not equal. GS dice used the absolute best, hard, impact resistant plastic available on the market. Good gamescience dice should last you decades. I've still got some GS dice from 1980. Other than a few small scratches here and there, they're still superb dice and still have nice clean sharp edges.
Anonymous
>>3080083 Wait. Are you the guy in the video? Do you post on /tg/?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080094 >Do you post on /tg/? Well of course he does.
Anonymous
>>3079635 dragonforce may be hard, but very irregular, inconsistent and awfully hard to work whit outside of specialized dragonforce studios. and for some bizarre reason you just cant get it to shred the same time twice in a row, there's a reason why all dragonforce pieces are assimetrical and jagged.
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3080083 See, at least half of the GS dice I have have the clip mark actually gouged into the side of the die. You can't exactly file that off. Also, the more a die rolls the more random its results are. Rounded edges improve randomization because they reduce the ability of the die roller to manipulate the roll of the die. Moreover, NOBODY is claiming reduced surface area on one face skews results because of surface friction. It's a matter of uneven distribution of mass on the die, which becomes increasingly important when you have a die that rolls properly.
Anonymous
>>3079778 And where may one purchase such things?
Fuuka ♥
a d1 would be impossibly flat.. and disappear if you tried to turn it over.
Chase !!fHYSvIRxSZx
Quoted By:
My assumption about the clip mark is that it doesn't protrude enough to prevent a roll from ending on that face.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080268 Actually, it's more of a.. well it's very complicated, but from a non-subjective, non-linear perspective, a d1 actually looks more like a little ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey... stuff.
Chase !!fHYSvIRxSZx
>>3080268 It's a plane. Just a plane.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080238 GOOGLE MOTHERFUCKER< DO YOU USE IT?
Quick googling of "kcth21.jpg" resulted in
http://q-workshop.com/main.php?lang=EN&sell_type=DETAL Anonymous
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3080234 Rounded edges are not better for randomization. If anything, they enable lopsided dice to find their lowest point of gravity that much easier, thus causing the die to favor a certain set of numbers over the rest.
The best thing for precision is even distribution of mass and surface area. Rounded edges do fuck all to contribute.
Anonymous
>>3080324 Planes have two sides... and are pretty unwieldy to roll or transport, considering their infinite extent.
Anonymous
>>3080384 You're right. We'll need to use a Klein bottle instead.
Anonymous
>>3080356 Except if you have a die with even mass distribution and even surface area, a die with rounded edges will be far more random than a die with crisp edges.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080415 or a mobius strip or a sphere
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080419 Which you're not going to get unless you machine them dice?
Anonymous
What about the uneven weight distribution caused by the different number shapes and paint? Casino dice pips are drilled to specific depths and then filled with a substance of similar mass to the original, ensuring that there is no skewing to a particular face. They are also milled *after* filling, to ensure that the pips are as close to the surface level as possible. Then they throw out dice after a few months, because old dice are unreliably nonrandom. The ones you get as casino souvenirs are old dice. If you’re gonna go to the trouble of machining your own then you might as well put in the extra effort to get near perfect mass distribution as well. One solution might be to write the numbers on with some sort of permanent marker–like substance that bonds strongly with the plastic making it indelible. I have no idea what that substance would be, though. Another solution, but this doesn’t work well for ≥ 12 sides, is to use only one pip per side but filled in with different colors on each side. You could get creative and use two pips per side with different color combos for larger values. A devoted engineer could determine the amount of mass wastage per number, then adjust the depth of the cutting for each side. Thus 20 would be more shallow than 11, for example. That would be a bitch to calculate and implement though. Also, using plastic for this purpose seems dumb. I’d go with metal instead, either aluminum or brass. If you used brass you could fill the pips with silver solder, which would look cool.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080899 I was thinking brass anyways... I'd go with numbers rather than pips, but it would be a pain to calculate the depths. But then, it wouldn't be worth it if they WEREN'T precisely measured...
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 10:36:00 No. 3080953 Report >>3080899 >Another solution, but this doesn’t work well for ≥ 12 sides, is to use only one pip per side but filled in with different colors on each side. You could get creative and use two pips per side with different color combos for larger values. If you were to go to this much trouble, then you might as well just go base two. You only need 2 colors, and you can just use 5 dots per side. (Handles all the common size dice)
Anonymous
Quoted By:
Ow, I just cut myself on my fucking d8.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3080899 Wouldn't dice made from metal wear less quickly compared to plastic, too?
Fuuka ♥
>>3080899 God sakes, I doubt differences THAT small will make a different in the end. I can understand horribly lopsided dice screwing up, but a minor difference like that..?
Casinos I can understand doing it, but PnP players shouldn't bother.
Anonymous
>>3080899 >Then they throw out dice after a few months, because old dice are unreliably nonrandom. The ones you get as casino souvenirs are old dice. No. Casino management believe strongly in the idea of aging dice luck. Seriously, I had to argue with this one guy who dealt with dice disposal for a local casino. He didn't wnat to give me old dice because the luck was dead.
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 11:02:00 No. 3081058 Report Quoted By:
>>3081037 I believe that's what he's getting at. The distributions are near enough on all dice so it doesn't really matter.
As to early talk about the clean edges, even these dice
>>3079386 are rounded (poorly) just look at the d4, and the two d10s.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3081038 gb2/tv/ and watch The Cooler some more.
Anonymous
>>3079570 Not actually random, so no good
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 11:16:00 No. 3081106 Report Quoted By:
>>3081092 Frankly, if people find an RNG nonrandom, then dice would be as well by the same argument. A roll is predetermined by the hand movements, rolling surface, etc.
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3081108 You'd need to be fairly well-practiced in reading binary, especially with the values as small as they'd have to be in order to fit on a 16mm die...
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4
Long-Named Unholy Clown Ninja Maid Anonymous, Xom's Champion !!0aKrfPDoCW4 Sat 29 Nov 2008 11:30:00 No. 3081160 Report Quoted By:
>>3081131 He's referring to my post about binary dice here:
>>3080953 Anonymous
Anonymous
NOTHING is TOTALLY Random.
Anonymous
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3082065 Radioactive decay.
Nobody could actually be that stupid, so I'm rating you 3/10.
Anonymous
>>3082065 hi every1 im new!!!!!!! *holds up spork* my name is katy but u can
call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol...as u can see im very random!!!!
thats why i came here, 2 meet random ppl like me ^_^... im 13 years old
(im mature 4 my age tho!!) i like 2 watch invader zim w/ my girlfreind
(im bi if u dont like it deal w/it) its our favorite tv show!!! bcuz its
SOOOO random!!!! shes random 2 of course but i want 2 meet more random
ppl =) like they say the more the merrier!!!! lol...neways i hope 2 make
alot of freinds here so give me lots of commentses!!!!
DOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <--- me bein random again ^_^ hehe...toodles!!!!!
love and waffles,
* ~t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m~*
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3082549 Well played, good sir.
Anonymous
Anonymous
Fuck all of you guys. I play a special homebrew D&D that uses Pass the Pigs for attack rolls. Both on snouts = critical hit.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
http://www.gamescience.com/ Scroll down to be blinded by science.
Anonymous