Earlier this year, as part of the tools of war series, At War published photographs of Taliban small arms from Helmand province, along with data on the types of firearms in insurgent use. The photographs included images of bolt-action rifles, including one, a Lee-Enfield rifle, that dated to 1915.
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/whats-inside-a-taliban-gun-locker/ In spite of their advanced age, Lee-Enfield rifles, along with Soviet Mosin-Nagant bolt-action arms, have seen continued service in Afghanistan for two reasons: they offer greater range and accuracy than the assault rifles in more common circulation, and their ammunition remains available on Afghan black markets.
Many readers wrote with questions about that old Lee-Enfield. Some asked what else we might be seeing. Today we return to the collection with the publication of an even older rifle seized from the Taliban.
tan for two reasons: they offer greater range and accuracy than the assault rifles in more common circulation, and their ammunition remains available on Afghan black markets.
Many readers wrote with questions about that old Lee-Enfield. Some asked what else we might be seeing. Today we return to the collection with the publication of an even older rifle seized from the Taliban.
The rifle in question, also collected by Marines in Marja, is a standard-issue Martini-Henry rifle. The Martini-Henry predates the Lee-Enfield by a more than generation. It was first fielded in the 1870s and was carried by British colonial troops to far-flung corners of the world. Like the Lee-Enfield line, and like well-made infantry rifles generally, the Martini-Henry rifles proved sturdy and have lasted, when well-cared for, for more than a century.
Oswald
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Now take a good look at this particular Martini-Henry rifle, as there is a clear difference between it and the Lee-Enfield that was collected in roughly the same area. The difference is in its condition. The Lee-Enfield, and many others picked up by the Marines, were reasonably maintained and in working order. The Martini-Henry was not.
Oswald
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A rifle without ammunition is no better than a club. And without ready sources of supply, a weapon like this has become, for practical purposes, obsolete.
In a land where even Kalashnikovs with rusty exteriors are often oiled inside and kept in working order, a Martini-Henry, it seems, is a tool fit for a bygone time, and allowed to fall into neglect. This rifle was a mess inside and out. British .303 ammunition, while not apparently abundant, still does turn up in the field. The supplies are much smaller than in decades past, but they are not yet exhausted.
These rifles, both of them antiques, offer a lesson. Rifles and ammunition are a system, and when nations fielded them they manufactured and distributed them together. Decades on, the martial refuse of many nations litter the developing world, providing a means in volatile lands for war, terror and crime. How long does it take a class of rifles to die? In some cases, the answer might be this: When the ammunition source runs dry.
For more information on this particular rifle, the Martini-Henry line, and antique fighting tools in Afghanistan, go here.
http://cjchivers.com/post/2164511162/in-afghanistan-artifacts-from-wars-gone-by Anonymous
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So what you're telling me is that I shouldn't field a Martini-Henry as my main combat weapon?
Oswald
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In a previous post, and an article last year, The New York Times examined the question of how Taliban fighters obtain their small-arms ammunition. The limited data available – gleaned from captured Taliban weapons and magazines, or from spent casings collected from Taliban firing positions after firefights – pointed to Afghan security forces as a significant source.
Oswald
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The weapon was picked up by the company’s First Platoon after a firefight of several hours, during which the Marines and Taliban fighters fired at each other across agricultural fields, ditches and irrigation canals. Both sides were bounding between small mud-walled compounds. After Taliban fighters were contained in a compound, a Reaper drone fired a Hellfire guided missile into its northern wall.
Oswald
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(Interestingly, Kilo Company received a shipment of PK machine-gun ammunition bearing the factory stamp 188 the day after this particular firefight. The ammunition was for issue to the Afghan National Army platoon that is accompanying the Marine company on the Marja offensive.)
Oswald
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The presence in Taliban arms of ammunition identical to that provided by the Pentagon to Afghan forces could be explained by many means of diversion. Capture on the battlefield, corruption and theft all likely play roles. Many American officers who have worked with Afghan units put corruption at the top of the list; a sizable fraction of Afghan troops and police officers, they say, sell issued equipment, fuel and ammunition to bazaars.
Oswald
What’s Inside a Taliban Gun Locker? Oswald Wed 25 May 2011 14:50:00 No. 8932020 Report Quoted By:
The New York Times and At War have taken several different looks at insurgent arms and munitions in Afghanistan, which can yield information about how insurgents equip themselves and fight, and how the Taliban has been able to maintain itself as a viable force for more than 15 years.
Oswald
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The ratio is interesting and aligns with the experience of patrolling in and near Marja and other contested areas nearby. Insurgents in Helmand Province seem to have used bolt-action rifles more than in many regions of Afghanistan. Whether this indicates a pressure on the supply of assault rifles and their ammunition or a preference for the longer effective ranges of Lee-Enfield and Mosin-Nagant rifles is not clear. But the longer range of bolt-action rifles compared with assault rifles, and their relative abundance in Helmand Province, is a reason this particular acreage of Afghanistan has a reputation as being plagued by a more dangerous set of Afghan marksmen, and even a few snipers, as seen in this video. For those who have been under fire in Helmand, finding that a large fraction of captured rifles are Lee-Enfields or Mosin-Nagants is not surprising. This battalion’s battlefield collections fit its Marines’ experiences on patrol.
Oswald
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As was typical of many older PK-variant machine guns, the stock was made of laminated wood — plywood, essentially. And some time ago it had been snapped. But whoever was responsible for it had cobbled it back in place with the help of two strips of sheet metal and a handful of light nails. There was still play in the stock, and this would undermine its accuracy. But the weapon could be used.
Dunecoon !!agrb2CyR7tQ
Oswald
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How do Taliban fighters operate and sustain themselves as an effective force in the field?
Oswald
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Last year, The Times examined the contents of 30 Kalashnikov magazines taken from insurgents killed in an American ambush in Korangal Valley, and found telling signs of diversion of ammunition from the Afghan army or police. At least 17 of the magazines contained ammunition identical to the cartridges issued by the United States to Afghan government forces.
Oswald
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The possibility that the Taliban obtain a significant portion of their small-arms ammunition, directly or indirectly, from the Afghan government is not in itself a surprise. Insurgents the world over have often relied on government leakage to arm their ranks. The practice is so common that it was a guerrilla axiom popularized by Mao, who wrote in his durable 1937 treatise, “On Guerrilla Warfare,” that guerrillas should regard their enemy as their source of supply.
Oswald
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So what did this latest captured rifle magazine contain? And what might it tell us?
Oswald
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The remaining five rounds included three with different Arabic headstamps and one not covered by the many keys I have gathered from ordnance sources over the years. (I’ve sent pictures of these to a nongovernment expert who might be able to identify them later.)
Oswald
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A word of caution is in order. It is difficult to extrapolate with certitude from one half-expended magazine. Even larger samples might reflect only local conditions or the peculiar logistics of a particular fighting unit. And other variables could be at play. The fighter who carried this magazine might have been a low-level or part-time insurgent. Supplying him might not have been a Taliban priority. New and more uniform caches of ammunition might be stockpiled in places of high Taliban interest, like the purported insurgent and drug-baron haven in Marja.
Anonymous
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Post faster dammit
Oswald
Oh where, oh where has my Afghan gun gone? Oswald Wed 25 May 2011 15:11:00 No. 8932086 Report Quoted By:
As part of international efforts to train and equip the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police, collectively referred to as the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF), the U.S. has been responsible for procuring and distributing about 380,000 small arms and light weapons. These include grenade launchers, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, mortars, pistols, rifles, and shotguns. The Department of Defense and 21 donor nations report the value of these weapons at over $223 million.
Oswald
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Enter the United States Government Accountability Office and a new report that reveals sloppy inventory records for an estimated 87,000 weapons—or about 36 percent—of the 242,000 weapons that the United States procured and shipped to Afghanistan from December 2004 through June 2008.
Oswald
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Lapses in accountability occurred throughout the supply chain. For example, during the transportation of U.S.-procured weapons into Afghanistan, no serial numbers were provided to verify receipt. Additionally, after receiving weapons in Kabul, no record was made of their serial numbers nor were routine physical inventories conducted at the central depots where the weapons were stored.
N.Ire.Shooter !kE82Nj6JyE
Anyone really interested in this should look to buy "The Gun" by C.J.Chivers
http://cjchivers.com/ It's not a book for those only vaguely interesting in small arms, but encompasses the political, military, socio-economics and much much surrounding small arms production and proliferation the world over
Oswald
Arms Sent by U.S. May Be Falling Into Taliban Hands Oswald Wed 25 May 2011 15:16:00 No. 8932098 Report Quoted By:
KABUL — Insurgents in Afghanistan, fighting from some of the poorest and most remote regions on earth, have managed for years to maintain an intensive guerrilla war against materially superior American and Afghan forces.
Oswald
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The scope of that diversion remains unknown, and the 30 magazines represented a single sampling of fewer than 1,000 cartridges. But military officials, arms analysts and dealers say it points to a worrisome possibility: With only spotty American and Afghan controls on the vast inventory of weapons and ammunition sent into Afghanistan during an eight-year conflict, poor discipline and outright corruption among Afghan forces may have helped insurgents stay supplied.
Oswald
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No similarly thorough accountability system exists for ammunition, which is harder to trace and more liquid than firearms, readily changing hands through corruption, illegal sales, theft, battlefield loss and other forms of diversion.
Oswald
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Access to Taliban equipment is unusual. But after the ambush, the company allowed the items to be examined by this reporter.
Oswald
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“WOLF” stamps mark ammunition from Wolf Performance Ammunition, a company in California that sells Russian-made cartridges to American gun owners. The company has also provided cartridges for Afghan soldiers and police officers, typically through middlemen. Its munitions can be found in Afghan government bunkers.
Oswald
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There is no evidence that Wolf, the Czech government or A.E.Y. knowingly shipped ammunition to Afghan insurgents. A.E.Y. was banned last year from doing business with the Pentagon, but its legal troubles stemmed from unrelated allegations of fraud.
Anonymous
This is a fascinating in-depth series of articles. Is this from FOX news?
Oswald
U.S. Worried Iran Sending Chinese Weapons To Taliban via Pakistan Oswald Wed 25 May 2011 15:27:00 No. 8932129 Report Quoted By:
Authorities in Herat found a 10-ton cache of weapons marked with Chinese, Russian, and Persian (Pajhwak Afghan News)
Oswald
NYT, Armytimes, rferl.org, telegraph, dod, wired Oswald Wed 25 May 2011 15:32:00 No. 8932144 Report Quoted By:
"A subject that I have discussed with the Chinese in the past is the fact of their weapons sales to the country of Iran and our concern," Negroponte said. "We have tried to discourage the Chinese from signing any new weapons contracts with Iran. We are concerned by reports -- which we consider to be reliable -- of explosively formed projectiles and other kinds of military equipment coming from Iran across the border and coming into the hands of the Taliban."
Oswald
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But the presence of Chinese weapons so close to the Iranian border is the strongest evidence to date suggesting Tehran has had at least an indirect role in arms shipments to Afghanistan.
Oswald
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"I have no doubt that Iran has been involved in channeling money and arms to various elements in Afghanistan, including the Taliban, for the last few years. They have long-running relations with many of the commanders and small-time warlords in western Afghanistan," Rashid says. "I think Iran is playing all sides in the Afghan conflict. And there are Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns who are being funded by Iran who are active in western Afghanistan. If the Iranians are convinced that the Americans are undermining them through western Afghanistan, then it is very likely that these agents of theirs have been activated."
Oswald
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"The question is, what would get even a faction within Iran to make that type of a decision? Maybe you have excellent business ties between the Iranians and the Afghans on the other side -- not necesarily the central government in Kabul -- but local leaders in Herat who turn around saying, 'You Iranians are building roads and infrastructure here. You are setting up shops and factories. But for us to be able to guarantee that we can protect your business interests, we'll need to receive some arms.' That's an argument that one could put out: that the Iranians are essentially supplying not the Taliban, but Afghan partners to secure Iranian businesses and interests in western Afghanistan," Vatanka says.
Oswald
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Vatanka says that as long as Karzai maintains that position, skeptics around the world will dismiss suggestions from Washington that Tehran is supplying Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.
Anonymous
>>8932120 > This is a fascinating in-depth series of articles. Is this from FOX news? this is not an anti-Democrat opinion-based rant full of distorted half-truth, so it is obviously not from FOX
Anonymous
>>8932181 Thanks. I was starting to worry I hadn't trolled anyone with my post.
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
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fascinating story bro
Anonymous
Showing op his efforts are appreciated bump, bump.
Anonymous
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>>8932187 least I could do
Anonymous
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>>8932224 Agreed. Thanks OP! Bump
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
coming back after playing CoH, bump for more?
Oswald
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>>8932512 OP here. Thought you might enjoy. I might be dumping another later on the latest Mexican border shit.
Anonymous
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>>8931980 That one is an Antique and not considered a firearm by the ATF, you could bring that home with no paperwork.
Anonymous
this thread has received 1 of 4 requests needed to trigger archival.
Anonymous
>>8931980 My guess is that the Martini-Henry was abandoned for reasons other than lack of ammo. Martini-Henrys are still made in Darra, Pakistan (just outside of Peshawar) and ammunition is still made for them there, as well. Since Darra is a Pashtun area, I'm sure that weapons and ammo easily flow into Afghanistan from there.
Darra ammo is known for its poor quality, though. Smokeless powder is generally made from shredded nitrocellulose film there.
Anonymous
>>8932635 The ones that are newly made are more than likely made in .303 British or perhaps 7.62 NATO.
That would in fact make the Martini a Martini-Enfield, or, if it's a .308, a Martini-NATO.
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
>>8932633 post a link, I'll help
Anonymous
>>8932680 wait what is this weapon?
Anonymous
>>8932722 i was just having a conversation last night about different types of bolt action rifles that had longer mag capacity
would like to know what that is
Anonymous
>>8932731 >>8932722 It looks like a commercial action on an AK receiver with gas block/rear sight, and that safety looks like it's from an No1 Mk3.
Anonymous
>>8932783 yeah it looked to me like a mash up of various components, just was curious if i was missing something.
Anonymous
>>8932783 It is, as the filename indicates, a a bolt action AK-pattern rifle. Google 'khyber pass guns' or variations thereof, and you'll find plenty of info.
Long story short though, there's a village in the border region that pretty much makes nothing but guns in the most ramshackle sweatshops imaginable.
And no, I don't know if they blocked the gas-piston tube on that AK.
Anonymous
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>>8932803 This guy again. The whole 'filename' bit wasn't to be a prick, but I had intended to say something about it being made in the Khyber Pass.
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
Anonymous
>>8932819 Bingo!
Isn't that, errr, at least near the Khyber Pass?
I know the story behind the Khyber Pass AKs. I just ass-umed that Daraa was in that neighborhood.
Anonymous
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>>8932661 >>8932831 Darra is near the Pass. The Martini-Henrys made there are chambered for the original blackpowder cartridge. They're probably used as hunting weapons, as any Pashtun hick knows how to make blackpowder and reload brass.
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
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>>8932831 yep, Daraa is in the Khyber (it's a bloody big place, the Khyber).
By the way, earlier on in the thread there was some discussion of Martini-Henries. Well lookee here!
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
this pic reminds me of that bit in one of the Sherlock Holmes stories where Watson is like, "it was a particularly unpleasant autumn, and the cold was troubling my leg, which still has an Afghan Jezzial bullet in it..."
Anonymous
>>8932867 No words can aptly describe how unsafe that looks, so I'll go with 'very'.
Vague Englishman !!WCSrCc9K5s7
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>>8932893 "iz nice gun, go boom and somebody die, maybe russian soldier, maybe faisel next to you. It so loud it vill bamboozle you!" - uncle khan's last words.
Anonymous
Thanks OP, that was interesting.
Anonymous
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>>8932922 2 requests so far, mine included.
Anonymous
from same journalists tumblr thing....
How does fucking gaddafi F2000 ?
http://cjchivers.com/post/5401976501/arms-libya-where-east-meets-west Anonymous
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For the first time in months: A genuinely interesting thread on /k/. My utmost gratitude, OP.
Anonymous
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The best part of At War was their thing on Taliban marksmanship. They went to a brigade in Afghanistan:>Oh, we've been in about 150 firefights. >How many of your men have been hit? >Nobody has been touched by a Taliban bullet in this brigade.
Anonymous
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talibans probably like marines in pacific in 1942 ... hurp durp fighting with same shit my grandfather used.
Anonymous
Anonymous
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>>8932092 I just bought this a couple of weeks ago. It is fantastic.
Anonymous
>>8932867 That's actually a PTRS-41 with the gas block and gas system removed.
Anonymous
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>>8932680 Protip: It's a 1917 Eddystone "Enfield" (it's just another Mauser action basically) stuffed into an AK receiver. The magazine is probably from an old MG;
Anonymous
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>>8933149 no, it's not. it's not a PTRS or a PTRD, it's something else.
Anonymous
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>>8933149 PTRS41 was a tilting bolt automatic, just taking the gas system out wouldn't make it into a rotating bolt single shot.
Anonymous
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This needs archiving, so please, go to
chanarchive.org and vote for it.
Anonymous
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>>8933149 Troll on your shining star
