The reason conservatives don't want Universal Health care in America is pretty simple. If the working class (the rural white working class especially) and the lower middle class realize that the Government is good, it's game over for the GOP. Their "small government" lies won't work because no one would want smaller government if that meant they would have to pay more for health care.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
Yup, you hit the nail on the head. The situation definitely isn't any more complex than you're portraying it. Good job!
Anonymous
Not really. If you want to simplify it, it's because the standard of healthcare for rich people would decline.
Anonymous
enjoy giving 50c to the gov for every buck you make
Anonymous
>>3120223 Look at the "conservatives" in Europe. They would be left wingers in the US. Why? Because UHC shifted all of Europe's politics to the left. The center in Europe is center-left because people automatically assume that the government's role is to help the people, not rape them.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in America is pretty simple. If the lower middle class (the rural white working class (the rural white working class (the rural white working class especially) and the lower middle class realize that meant they would have to pay more for health care. tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is good, it's game over for health care. tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in political necessity and the working class realize that the Government is rooted in America is pretty simple.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
That's exactly it. During the Clinton years, William Kristol, the arch Neocon wrote a letter to Republicans telling them to oppose all health care bills, especially if they were good for Americans, because if the Democrats did something good for Americans, it would mean fewer votes for Republicans in the future.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120237 I already pay for insurance. I would rather the Government get my money than parasitic corporations. At least I can vote the Government out of power. All I can do to the Corporations is stop buying their product which in this case is medical care. If I did that I would die.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
I'd prefer the government to stay out of healthcare. Just look at how Europe bans fucking foods left and right. Hell, New York has proposed a "fat tax" on non-diet soda/pop, fast food and everything. The money isn't even going to healthcare, WHAT THE FUCK.
Anonymous
>>3120237 PROTIP: That's cheaper than what I pay now for health insurance + copays + deductibles.
I would SAVE money if the government had free health care.
Anonymous
>>3120283 >At least I can vote the Government out of power. lolol
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120307 Are you a fat, cancer-ridden diabetic?
Shania Twain
Quoted By:
So you derive pleasure from arguing with barely literate 15-year-olds on the internet about national welfare policy, and uncritically accept partisan propaganda about "the liberals" and "the conservatives" and class conflict...
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>Government >good
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120314 What is there to laugh about? When a politician fails, he is usually defeated in the polls. When a CEO fails, he gets a huge fucking bonus. I know which system I prefer.
Anonymous
>>3120283 whatever left-wing faggot told you gov-run health care was superior to private has never waited 16 months for an "emergency" knee surgery or spent a night in a waiting room just to see some haji doc in a filthy spanish hospital.
guess what, all those cares and procedures have high dollar costs, if you open the door to them for everyone the system will become congested and the burden on the taxpayer will jump tenfold.
Even canada who is heralded as having the best health care system in the world is incapable of properly handling the load and the the ever soaring costs
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120355 Look, America's private health care system which the Republicans ignorantly believe is so grand, is in reality the ranked 38th in the world after Costa Rica and slightly above Slovenia.
Government run health care has the top 10 spots in the W.H.O.'s rankings.
Anonymous
>>3120346 So a failed economic plan and the growth of executive power not being repealed is voting out of power. You can't vote something "out" using its own system.
When a CEO fails, the company is subsidized by the government (you voted for it) and leaves. If the corporation fails, it only affects its own clients/customers and workers. When a government fucks up, you get to pull the trigger again.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120355 > best health care system in the world IF IT'S BETTER THAN YOUR SYSTEM, YOU DON'T HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120355 There are many ways to supply the neccessary funds for a UHC system. My favorite is the Tobin Tax.
Anonymous
>>3120393 >If the corporation fails, it only affects its own clients/customers and workers. This is what libertarians actually believe. Fucking nonsense.
Anonymous
>>3120401 So economic isolationism that undermines import/exports practices will keep a country afloat and its people healthy?
lol
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120355 privately-run fire departments are superior too, i bet. who has the right to make _their_ fire someone else's problem and not expect to pay for it?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
Private health care is the least efficient way to provide health coverage to any society. In America, 38 million people can't get coverage. That's 15% of the population without any care.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
the rest of the first world does tend to find it a bit baffling that the RICHEST FUCKING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EVER has shittier healthcare than fucking cuba
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120415 Prove it wrong. The only reason it affects more people is because bad decisions are propagated and the government adds more layers of uncertainty to the economy in the form of stimulus. That's why it affects more people. Damn you statists love daddy-government with their fantastic schools, well-kept roads and functioning court system.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120428 Yes it will, if combined with protectionist policies to keep the American worker employed. Reaganomics has failed. I suggest you adopt a new religion.
Anonymous
123>Just look at how Europe bans fucking foods left and right. Hell, New York has proposed a "fat tax" on non-diet soda/pop, fast food and everything.
Anonymous
Ask anyone who lives in a place where there is free/universal healthcare; basically if you arnt dieing it takes about a week for them to see you.
Anonymous
>>3120415 You mind explaining a little further other than "LOL LIBRARIAN RON PAUL ANNE RAN SLASH FIC LOL U GUISE R GAY"?
Anonymous
>>3120465 No, as long as we let them die and stop receiving emergency medical care, we're fine.
>>3120464 Not reaganomics, dumb-fuck. It's called open trade. You can't deny people their willingness to make a sale with another human being on the basis that it moves currency to a different locale. It's called competition, get used to it and maybe you can move out of your parents basement one day.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120473 >Tell me, what's it like to be so unable to comprehend basic economics? you tell us CB, after all you're the expert.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120473 Feels good man. What's it feel like to support an economic system that is destabilizing America?
Anonymous
>>3120477 private healthcare doesn't just disappear when socialized healthcare appears, if you're that concerned about it you can still pay the premium & be able to skip the line
Anonymous
>>3120465 Apparently you have never shopped for food. Most food is like this:
[ ] Cheap
[ ] Tastes Good
[ ] Healthy
Pick two. Making a "fat tax" basically turns it into this:
[ ] Cheap
[ ] Tastes Good
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120494 Can't do those things, broski. And they're too stupid to learn it themselves, apparently. We need laws against fatties.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120494 competition's a fun word to throw around when the global economic system is rigged in your favour.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
ugh, christ, I give up
Anonymous
Or it could be that distributed systems anticipate demand and provide supply priced for demand more efficiently than government bureaucracy ever has and will.
Anonymous
>>3120509 Except now you also have to pay for everyone else, too.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120504 if you really think America isn't hamstrung by retarded keynesian economic policies you really need to read a book or two
Anonymous
>>3120517 wat
That makes no sense, you know. If you tax shit food, that gives more incentive for suppliers to produce healthy food and consumers to purchase healthy food. That's how the market works.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120536 Have you ever actually been to the doctor? They can't wait get you out of their office. More patients=more money. The Free Market decreases the quality of Medical care.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120509 Amazing, I get to double pay for a service.
Sounds amazing.
How about you go fuck yourself? I'm already spending 40,000 a year in property taxes to put your snot-nosed ass through high school.
>>3120504 OH NOES 7.5% UNEMPLOYMENT AND A $1.95 A GALLON GASOLINE. AMERICA IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE!
Children, recessions are part of the business cycle. Irrational booms need to be corrected. You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120542 with private healthcare you're paying for everyone else who uses that particular firm plus whatever the company needs to make a profit
Anonymous
>>3120564 If they don't provide quality care no one is going to go back to them, idiot. What the government incentive to provide a good service?
I'm not saying the American system is better than UHC, but America doesn't have a FREE MARKET system.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120536 Government doctors in UHC countries make good salaries. It's well above average.
They're not some retard with a scalpel.
Anonymous
Or we can get rid of the money system. Start working with labor credits or some bullshit.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120589 either complete idiot or master troll
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120552 Unless its nationalized and people go apeshit over healthy food the price of healthy food will never lower especially since companies know that you will pay what they were already charging for their product.
Like global warming/climate change/manbearpig and the new thing that hippies are pushing to make ANOTHER tax law. Its just some other shit companies made up to make more money.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120574 >Children, recessions are part of the business cycle. Irrational booms need to be corrected. You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years. that is, the unprecedented increase in the incomes of the wealthy and the stagnation of wage growth for the common man?
yeah, feels good.
Anonymous
>>3120189 Government would be good, if the government officials weren't greedy and corrupt. Unfortunately, in the real world, they are. So a small government should be preferred (And is preferred by those who aren't idiots).
Anonymous
12
>>3120574 >AMERICA IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE! No, but america is about to fall off its perch as the dominant superpower in the world.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120564 they also cant wait to do their job right. fuck up=lawsuit
Anonymous
>>3120252 The issue in American politics is not government's role to help or rape, you simpleton. It's the role to help or to protect.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
Give me a fucking break, even the fucking minimum wage has jumped like crazy in the last 20 years. Stagnation my ass.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120564 >>3120580 Both are sort of right. More patients=more money (if they're denied) but it's simple.
The denial of medically necessary service under any health care should be a crime, just as well not having the money to pay for the service OR having insurance to pay for it is default and is considered debt (maybe you get sent to collections). POOF! problem solved, no more dead faggots, no more bullshit incentives for shitty service and people learn to take care of themselves.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120605 it was unsustainable and everyone saw it coming anyway. We'll still be a top 5 player well into the next century
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120602 Goverment is corrupt, corporations are corrupt.
NEITHER IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. You fucking morons.
You have to pick and choose which is better for particular applications. National defense - governemtn. Health Care - government. Education - probably corporations.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120574 >Recessions are part of the business cycle.Irrational booms need to be corrected. But shouldn't the government's responsibility be to protect its people from the worst results of those "corrections"? I do not believe that the American people's health should be sacrificed at the alter of Free Markets.
But that's just me. I'm sure Herbert Hoover would agree with you though.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120618 unfortunately thats what they want you to think they are doing.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120605 >america is about to fall off its perch as the dominant superpower in the world. Every generation of Europeans repeats this.
No one comes CLOSE to challenging the US in economic or military power.
You really have no idea.
China, like Japan before it, is completely dependent on exports to the United States.
15 years ago, Japan was going to be the NEW ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER.
Look how that turned out.
China is completely unstable. It has 850 million people in abject poverty ruled by a corrupt autocracy.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120635 you are so ignorant it defies words
Anonymous
>>3120649 >China is completely unstable. It has 850 million people in abject poverty ruled by a corrupt autocracy. Maybe 10 years ago, yeah. Do you keep up with the times? China has made huge leaps forward on lots of fronts.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120602 Because private corporations are totally pure and incorruptible. That's funny.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120669 because they compete
government competes with no one
do you even know what decentralization of power is my god
Anonymous
>>3120564 I was at the doctor last week, I paid in cash. My service was quick and efficient, as I wanted it to be because I am not a faggot that wants to spend all day in a doctor's office. I also didn't need to because my doctor is a badass who listented to my symptoms, poked me in a couple places, took some blood and gave me a scrip. Told me he'd call me when the lab work went through to confirm he was right, and that otherwise I would have to come back for a different scrip.
He was right.
UHC would have no concern for either quality or quantity of services provided, like all government services.
Also, fuck you if you think I, a person who contributes significantly more to the economy than most people, should have to put up with the same shitty healthcare everyone else gets when I can afford better. No emergency room or doctor in the world is ALLOWED to refuse a patient treatment anyway. It's not like hospitals don't write off millions of dollars worth of bills every year because poor people couldn't pay. The only difference is in UHC that shit comes out of MY paycheck and not THEIRS. The only difference is that under UHC a 3 hr wait at the ER would turn into a 12 hr wait. The only difference is that in UHC health care would no longer be profitable and thus talented people would NO. LONGER. DO. IT.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120667 You are a fucking moron.
China has 1.6 billion people.
Most live in poverty.
Even with those "giant leaps".
Anonymous
Even if it's shit people will probably still defend it (Seriously, I'm Canadian and the amount of people who will bend over for our healthcare system is ridiculous)
>>3120346 >When a politician fails, he is usually defeated in the polls. Funny statement coming from the land where Bush got re-elected
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
Quoted By:
>>3120700 Excuse me, 1.3 billion people.
With a unbalanced gender ratio.
It's a cesspit.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120709 Bush got re-elected because he made Americans afraid of "TEH GAYS." Also John Kerry turned out to be a gigantic faggot who couldn't win a political campaign if he were running against Richard Nixon.
The voters rejected Bush-lite McCain and the Bush clone Palin at the polls last November. I'd say the system is working pretty well.
Anonymous
>>3120669 Straw Man. Begging the question.
Of course corporations are as corruptible as government, the difference is that corporations, as a whole, do what's in the best interests of profit. Profit, in the case of health care, is dramatically diminished when people cannot afford optional services and/or file malpractice suits.
If you were going to pick an argument and stick to it for UHC, you could probably pull out pharmaceutical companies as a good example that's nigh-irrefutable, but the problem is that doesn't make a full argument for DHC, it just makes an argument for changing the patent laws on medicine.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120492 Can any of you robots answer my question or was I just trolled?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120725 And I hope you get a fucking job you lazy fucking hippy.
Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3120691 As has been stated already, the existence of public health care doesn't make private health care cease to exist. You can still pay for better health care.
>>3120700 China has a poverty rate of 10%, dipshit. So you're fucking wrong about there being 850 million people in poverty in China.
Anonymous
>>3120768 it makes it more expensive and IT STILL COMES OUT OF YOUR TAXES
Anonymous
>>3120734 >do what's in the best interests of profit But not what is best for the consumer or the worker.This is why Free Market Capitalism fails.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120781 If you're rich, you can afford to pay the difference, and since the wealth gap has increased by a large margin in recent decades, I don't have a problem with that. If you're not rich, you're getting the same level of healthcare anyway.
Anonymous
>>3120691 Why is there a growing shortage of doctors in America then, if it is such a profitable profession?
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120733 Richard Nixon was a great president.
One of the best of the 20th century. He almost won EVERY state in 1974. He is just demonized because of Watergate(rightly so).
pic related
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120794 well if consumers aren't buying then those who provide services aren't getting profit
holy dick do you leftists even think about what you say
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120812 You are delusional.
>Why is there a growing shortage of doctors in America Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120812 Do you really need to ask? It's fucking hard to do medical school, christ. I might be able to get in, but damn that's a lot of work and I don't know if I want to be a doctor or an economist, yet.
10/10 if trolling...
Anonymous
>>3120818 He only won because:
1. The Southern Strategy: He used racism to get traditionally democratic demographics to vote republican.
2. His opponents were John Kerry-esque hippies. No one likes hippies. I hate hippies, and I am more liberal than Michael Moore.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120768 >Poverty in China refers to people whose income is less than a poverty line of $1 per day (PPP) set by the World Bank benchmark That's EXTREME poverty idiot.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120794 YEAH! IF PEOPLE WERE JUST NICE TO EACH OTHER THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE!
Anonymous
>>3120818 Wow he steamrolled GEORGE MCGOVERN.
That must have been tough.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120794 Hm, so you haven't provided a definition for "failure" or in this case "consumer" or "worker," nor demonstrated in any way how the consumer or worker is damaged by corporations being motivated by profit, yet you are already claiming it fails. Why exactly does it fail? I want some real examples. I don't want some slippery slope reducto ad absurdum or ad nauseum or straw man bullshit, I want one SINGLE fucking reason Free Market Capitalism is inferior to ANY OTHER SYSTEM THAT HAS EVER BEEN TRIED.
Give me ONE fucking reason, and you win. ONE reason that cannot be argued.
Protip: This will be difficult because the success of capitalism is based on the assumption that the great majority of people are inherently motivated by profit, and as a result, the most capable and hardest working people will be the most likely to make the most of it. Those people are the "workers" and the "consumers" in your little unfinished equation.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120851 Who can forget Bush's policy to exterminate all niggers, I guess that's what won him the racist vote.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120851 The great democratic slander. It's funny coming from them. Seeing as they WERE openly racist then. The "Southern strategy" has no empirical support.
>The Southern Strategy Anonymous
Anonymous
>>3120794 You're misguiding your accusations. If businesses focused on what was always right for the individual consumer, they would be out of business in no time.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120861 Samefag here. The problem with democrats is they keep on trying to get noble guys like McGovern into office, instead of getting average pricks into office like Reagan and Bush.
It's the whole electability vs. good governance thing.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120818 The revisionist history of Nixon has been getting out of hand lately. As a libertarianfag, I feel obligated to remind you that profitable trade with China didn't start until the Carter Administration, the EPA was the work of a Democratic Congress, and that Nixon was elected primarily due to the colossal fuckup that was the Vietnam war and the backlash against it. In fact, Nixon was elected essentially the same way Obama was. People were tired of the devil they knew.
Anonymous
To all the conservatives in this thread who think socialized healthcare is a bad idea, consider this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/08/health/webmd/main3689315.shtml Out of all the civilized nations in the world, we have the largest amounts of preventable deaths. Just consider that.
Anonymous
>>3120853 Poverty is poverty. What definition do you want to use, what goalpost do you want to move to?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120918 Damn, I'm tired of this healthcare bullshit. Either you're a cool dude and can afford it or you should fucking die.
I'm serious, faggots who bitch need to go for a jog. I hate them, please die. Good thing I'm a sexy long-haired beast with plenty of muscle and get pussy at the drop of a hat or else I'd be in the same boat as you bitch-fags.
Damn, I'm good.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120918 So by paying higher taxes, people can AFFORD health care? Oh wait, you'll just hike the tax on the rich, you commie scum.
Anonymous
>>3120875 The 1968 election was the first election where the South turned completely red.. Something to do with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Nixon used the South's racial angst to win the former democrats over.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120925 In other words, the "unemployment rate" used in the U.S. only counts people who have actively looked for a job in the last 6 months. It doesn't count those who stopped looking because there were no jobs to be had.
Those people are fucking unemployed. Fuck semantics.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120931 It's not poverty when you just bought new rims for your '88 Civic and nice camera-phone. Die, fag. I'm so glad my dick has pleased more women than yours or else I'd be a bitch-fag like you.
Damn, I'm good.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120947 Republicans voted for the Civil Rights act at a higher percentage than democrats.
Try again moron.
Anonymous
>You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years.
Anonymous
>>3120884 Incorrect. A business exists to make a profit. They make a profit by providing goods to a consumer. If they did not make a profit, the person running the business would not make money, and thus have no reason to run the business, and thus have no reason to provide goods. You follow me here?
Secondly, capitalism operates on the principle of flexible pricing and profits. This is a genius strategy because it allows innovators to make great deals of money, stagnation to be inherently punished, and that prices are set by supply and demand, not by a central authority. As a result, capitalism is a distributed system, not a centralized one.
TL;DR: Capitalism is a torrent swarm filled with awesome seeds. Socialism is rapidshit with no premium accounts.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120951 Truth. This is the monopoly that is higher-education. It's not that there's not enough means to get everyone through college, it's that college has been defined as the ONLY mean.
Anonymous
>>3120969 That is correct, sir. Who needs a balanced budget like we had under Clintonian policy when we can just mortage our future to China?
Republicans really know what's best for america. Yeah.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3120971 I understand profit motive and I understand capitalist functions. Your previous statement made it sound as if businesses should focus on virtue rather than profit, which doesn't make sense, nor does it work.
I don't see how your reference translates to "capitalism fails"
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3120951 Doctors and Lawyers have arcane knowledge that the average joe doesn't understand. If they fuck up, it kills people/ruins lives.
They need to be highly educated.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3121000 Highly educated as doctors.
I'll take someone with 5 years in medical school over someone with 4 years in college and 4 years of medical school.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120964 Congress doesn't elect the president. The South was a democratic stronghold. It was also an extremely racist place. However, their racism outweighed their democratic values. When the government began forcing them to integrate their schools, they embraced the idea of "State's rights." What they really meant was "State's Right to Segregate" but that is irrelevant now. Nixon used that anger to his advantage and pummeled the shit out of Humphrey and McGovern.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121018 Nixon enforced the desegregation orders.
Keep trying faggot.
Maybe this time as anon again?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3121000 In Deutschland med school starts as an undergraduate. Bumping medical schools from an exclusively graduate-level institution would be a nice change in America.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3121037 I am not calling Nixon a racist. I have nothing but admiration for his cynical manipulation of stupid people. However, it is a commonly accepted fact that he used racism for his benefit.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
Quoted By:
>>3120918 The US has the highest minority population including an African-American population with an AIDs-rate similar to a sub-Saharan African nation.
"Preventable Death" includes things like accidents and suicides. Nothing to do with health care.
Try again.
Anonymous
>>3120996 FUCK YEAH, SACKING THE OIL RESERVES! FUCK YEAH, DoM ACT!! FUCK YEAH, GETTING US INTO BOSNIA!!! FUCK YEAH, LYING UNDER OATH!!!! FUCK YEAH, AWB!!!!! FUCK YEAH, RIDING ON A HIGHER AVERAGE OF WORKED HOURS FOR THE AVERAGE EMPLOYEE!!!!!! FUCK YEAH, DMCA!!!!!!!
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3121057 > No. Lol. It operates under systems of private law where businesses are often able to coerce prices by controlling supplies or making exclusive distribution contracts that prohibit competition outright. And if they don't then you can just set up a Marketing Promotion Fund and allocate money from it in such a way that harms business partners from operating freely, or selling below what we call: There is no private law, and when you are in business to make profit, you do not harm your partners, you harm your competitors, it's the name of the game.
> MRP. Minimum Resale Price. A price enforced on a secondhand person either by law or by market power. You mean MSRP, Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price.
> Market power is always used to make things less optimal for the economy as a whole and more optimal for the company but the company already is not optimal because people are siphoning from it, trying to profit from its operations, and generally being people. You are correct, this is exactly why corporations are sub-optimal. Now tell me, are all your comments "corporations bad! I have no other workable solutions, however!" like this one?
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121069 >>3121069 Commonly accepted by whom? People with an AGENDA without empirical support.
I've knocked down EVERY bullshit line you've spouted in this thread. You are now reduced to "Nixon used a racist campaign because I said so".
>>3121088 That's because our system is NOT a free market system. It's been distorted with a tax system that favors employer based health coverage and insurance companies bound to single states or regions.
Competition is difficult and pricing impossible.
This is all caused by government distortion.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3120996 Clinton was the best republican president ever. If more republicans were like him the GOP wouldn't be in such a bad shape right now.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
Quoted By:
>>3121088 >When was the last time you shopped for a doctor? All the time.
A perfect example of this is LASIK surgery, plastic surgery, dentistry and optometry.
They are all medical fields and all compete with pricing and advertising on the open market.
More traditional health care isn't competitive because of reasons that you stated. The consumer of health care is decoupled from its cost. The insurance company itself is the one that must make pricing arrangements.
In order to have a more efficient system, we need something like a high deductible insurance coverage, bought by individuals coupled, with a tax-free individual health savings account.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121179 No.
>You will also notice that everything IMPORTANT is heavy with Government. Anonymous
>>3121142 See:
>>3121111 More Republicans and Democrats need to stop compromising in the face of an election, lobbyists, and difficult choices. Fucking faggots.
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
>>3121193 You are basically asking politicians to stop being politicians. They won't stop, by the way.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3121179 That doesn't mean it's right for it to do so, or more effective for it to do so.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>3121037 He played them. For political gain.
We *are* talking about Nixon.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121177 "Certain candidates"
Kissing NAACP ass.
Worthless overture.
Anonymous
>>3121127 > People with an AGENDA without empirical support. Don't worry about CB, he just caught a glimpse of himself in the mirror and, well, you know how parrots can be.
BTW:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-14-GOP-racial-politics_x.htm Anonymous
>>3121189 Um. How not for any of those?
LiberalIsolationist !!rppEdCr8c
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>>3121219 OHHH The big scary NAACP! They are almost as powerful as ACORN! Hide the white wimmin!
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121243 No content in this article or the speech.
IT was base pandering in pathetic attempt to get party-machine democratic votes.
Anonymous
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>>3121264 You didn't reply to my zinger! I thought it was pretty clever, personally.
Anonymous
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>tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in political necessity and not actual fact.
CapitalistBastard !!f/pELCnjR
>>3121245 Transportation:
Airlines: no
Commercial Shipping: no
Railroads: no
Housing: no
Food: no
Clothing: no
Anonymous
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>>3121207 I know, it makes me sadface. There's only a few with balls left. Ron Paul, some Demolican from Utah who's name escapes me, and Alan Keyes. Sort of a random list, but I'm tired and have a lab tomorrow. Night.
Anonymous
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>>3121300 lol but the government regulates all those industries (except maybe clothes). So yes everything important is in fact heavy with government.
Anonymous
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The government IS a corporation. They are both vulnerable to corruption. The difference is that ultimately, YOU the consumer have the power to not buy a product from a corporation that you don't like. On the other hand, the government just takes your money up front, then spends it on something you may or may not want, and if you try to not pay them for this thing you may or may not want, they throw you in jail.
Anonymous
I love how silly Americans rage and spit at each other based on their hallucinations of what this creature called universal healthcare is :) I live in a shitty post-communist country. Our doctors are great and in demand in richer countries. I have stayed at cozy, comfortable hospitals with caring expert doctors for free. I can afford psychiatric meds to be a contributing member of society. I can register to see a doctor TOMORROW. If I want to, I can register at a private clinic, but I don't, because my ex-friend who's too paranoid to get OH NOES PUBLIC HEALTHCARE doesn't get any benefits and the people there are way bitchier. I have many friends whose parents are doctors at public clinics, and they're well-off, well-adjusted and content with their lot. As I am with the doctors that care for me.
Anonymous
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>>3121300 >Airlines: no >Commercial Shipping: no >Railroads: no not really
Anonymous
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>>3120669 Didn't say the corporations should run the country, dumbass. l believe it should be in the hands of the common people. (lol as if)
Anonymous
>>3121538 So champ. Where is this land of milk and honey where you live?
Anonymous
>>3123098 Not the person you're quoting but I live in Estonia and, even though I'm not aware of any non-specialized private clinics here, it's pretty much how that guy describes it.
But I do understand the Amerifag point of view. Higher taxes, pretty scary, huh? Nonetheless, I earn around $5000 per month, get universal healthcare, live in a way cheaper society as you do and overall enjoy life.
Enjoy your ronery.
Anonymous
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>>3123098 Lithuania. Pretty embarrassing to live in otherwise.
>>3123130 Hello, brother!
Anonymous
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Fiscal motivation in marketised HC is to have people buying medicine and care, which means getting sick is profitable
Anonymous
I'm not even going to read this thread because I know its nothing but shit.
Anonymous
>>3123172 We're already broke, we're already socialists at this point, anyway.
>The real problem of the matter is that it would take a incredible effort and drastic reform to pretty much every law in the country to make socialized medicine work. Then why not lobby for people to do it?
>The result? You'd have something like the VA hospitals, only free for everyone. Enjoying your 8 hour wait in the ER and stacks of paperwork. Yeah, you're right. VA hospitals DO suck. It'd be a shame if they all turned to this, when we finally do have UHC. Something tells me when UHC does roll around; it won't be nearly as bad as VA hospitals though. I mean, those are for vets, and Uncle Sam honestly couldn't give a fuck less. It's only media attention that's lead to recent steps to change veteran health care.
At least everyone could get it, though.
Anonymous
>>3123213 We pretty much have de-facto socialized medicine in the USA anyways. One of the major reasons why healthcare is so expensive, and its on the rise is due to malpractice insurance costs and all the other legal overhead and costs needed to run a fucking hospital or even a free clinic. Its not the nurse's unions or EMS unions breaking the bank, its this malpractice insurance that goes up everytime some dumb bitch sues the hospital for something stupid. Well, frivious lawsuits are one factor in the USA, because we don't have a "loser pays" type tort system like the UK does.
Now lemme tl;dr some more to why healthcare is truely as fucking outrageous as it is. Ok, its expensive because of that. So when some poor family or some street bum comes into the ER and receives the same quality healthcare a rich guy does, and they don't pay. They can't afford it, and they don't give a fuck if their credit is ruined, they can't afford that 10,000$ bill for that emergency surgery they needed.
So, the hospital loses profit, so they need to raise the costs even higher. This results in even more people not able or willing to pay. Then some dude doesn't pay for surgery, sues and gets 10 million because the doctor said some unprofessional shit to him about his tiny cock when he was wasn't quite completely sedated, ect.
Its a vicious cycle, the costs go up and in the end, only the middle-class and wealthier ever pay for medical treatment anyways. The very poor get whatever attention they need, because the hospital cannot refuse treatment because they cannot afford it.
So the system as it stands, it provides high-quality healthcare to people for free anyways, and somebody else foots the bill. Its not much different then having a bunch of government-run hospitals that are constantly on a budget crunch, constantly overwhelmed with paitents, and staffed with government employees that cannot hardly ever be fired, like the VA or military hospitals and free clinics are not.
Anonymous
>>3123252 that's not totally accurate. that $10,000 bill isn't forgotten. it's not like the hospital is like "lol ur too poor u dont give a shit" and those poor people don't have to pay.
Anonymous
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>>3123270 Yeah, they will send that same bill to that one dude every month for the rest of that paitent's life, but he's never going to pay it, and when he dies, the hospital *might* collect on that debt.
Anyways, the hobo or crackhead off the street isn't going to even have an address or even an ID card. He isn't going to pay for shit, bro.
Anonymous
I wish I had found this thread earlier, but oh well.
I have one thing to say and I will say it in caps so that people skimming down the thread will see it.
ALL OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES PAY LESS HEALTHCARE TAXES PER CAPITA THAN THE US.
That's right, every single other healthcare system in the world costs less in tax dollars than our own, even the most badly managed and poorly designed ones. Our government spends the most per capita on healthcare in the world.
The system as it stands isn't just less efficient than a universal system, it also costs more than it would cost to administer a universal system. This is because our system is an insanely bureaucratic monster of a hybrid between the free market and the government. It's badly desgned and it needs to go. This is fully in line with economic conservative values.
The solution lies in attacking the problems outlined in
>>3123172 head-on, and adopting a UHC model based on a successful transition from private to public in another country.
Anonymous
>>3123366 Thats what I said.
Socialized healthcare just isn't possible with the way the world works in this country. Its not about freemarket vs government or anything else, its about the underlying problems of our fucked up tort laws (litigation capital of the world is the US, more lawyers per capital then anywhere else, thanks) our fucked up insurance companies, insurance fraud and a dozen other somewhat less significant problems that add up to a monsterously overpriced healthcare system.
We have a very high-quality healthcare system, dispite what you might think. Its just incredibly expensive for no good reason at all.
I think privately run hospitals could exisit alongside public government-run hospitals if we just fixed the underlying problems, espeically the tort system.
Thing is, too many people are getting rich off civil litigation in this country for any tort-reform act to ever pass. The lobbyists and lawyers are just too powerful. It will never happen, espeically not with a democrat in office.
Anonymous
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>>3123366 this, except that transitioning to a fully market-based system would work tons better.
Socialized systems become vastly more inefficient with size because of bureaucracy and a couple of other things.
A country such as the US would have massive expenses for a UHC system. It might be cheaper than today's system, which is a complete clusterfuck, but at the expense of quality (the study that said that the US only has the 37th best HC system in the world is full of methodological flaws; the US has great health care in terms of quality).
A free market-solution would lead to a lot of effective ways to finance health care. I found this article very interesting:
http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html Anonymous
>160 posts and 4 image replies omitted.
Anonymous
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>>3123594 Fuck, now all I can think is "Midichlorians."
Anonymous
Spoilers: None of your opinions will ever matter. Nothing is going to change, no matter how many times you complain and 'vote'. The bureaucracy is self-running, just a disgusting mess of corporatism trying to keep up a facade of democracy in this country. You're all about 200 years too late.
Anonymous
>>3123617 truer words are seldom spoken. Get some people and secede from the nation if you want any degree of control over issues like these. The state sure as hell isn't going to let go of it.
Anonymous
>>3123628 Of course, the country with the world's largest army probably isn't a good country to piss off by bereaving it of its precious slave-citizens.
Anonymous
Just posting to say that pre obama's election capitalistbastard was a piece of shit GOP supporter that was proven wrong about everything he ever deemed fact, and went into hiding for a month when the elections were over. Another failure of private education systems in America.
Anonymous
>>3123650 Now, THERE'S a government failure if there ever was one. Together with intellectual property/monopoly, public schooling in the USA has made a very well-educated people into a people stereotyped as being ignorant of everything beyond the nearest shopping mall.
Anonymous
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>>3123637 Probably not, but cowering in a corner and giving up like some mutt before even getting hit or scolded is a worse fate. Cowards die a thousand deaths, and what have you.
I suggest you smart guys come to Texas. The majority are stupid christfags that can be easily manipulated and controlled so long as you talk long, use big words, and mention God in the concept of you being ordained by God. Getting a clergyman or priest on your side would make things even easier.
Anonymous
>>3123695 It sounds crazy, but I think kids would be better off without mandatory public schooling, it's one of these things that is just so fucked up, no one learns anything except how to tell teachers to fuck off in public school.
If kids didn't waste time in school they could be picking up professions, and if they really wanted to study, libraries are always around right?
Anonymous
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>>3123723 And, you know, private schools. That, if public schools were a thing of yesterday, would be dirt cheap, forced by competition to continually improve themselves, and free to innovate an area where significant progress hasn't been made for the last 200 years, schooling.
Anonymous
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Socialism: The government taking 15 million dollars and spreading it amongst thousands of poor people through social welfare, because the people of the country want it like that
Anonymous
As a Britfag, I was actually extremely surprised that America didn't have free healthcare when I was told this. I just assumed that it was something that all western civilisations had.
Anonymous
>>3123771 welfare in this country is extremely limited as well
Anonymous
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>>3123771 so that people who are made poorer by taxation and economic intervention can get back some of their taxes to purchase health care made expensive by government intervention.
Duh!
Anonymous
>>3123771 Jesus shit have you read any part of this thread at all?
There is about a dozen tl;drs explaining why the healthcare system in the USA is the way it is.
Anyways, how could you think the USA could afford universal healthcare when our taxes are low and everything is less expensive then in europe? (Except the things in europe that are subsidized or free from the government, healthcare, ect.)
Anonymous
>>3123790 because UHC is less expensive than what we're already paying for? UHC would save you money, dude, and the country as well
Anonymous
>>3123780 But you have it, and you don't have healthcare?
Granted, we have lots of (sensationalised melodramatic) horror stories about NHSs all over the world, but the idea of personally shelling out for a doctor or medicine is something from ancient civilisations, not western society.
You people have something honestly wrong with you if you think this is acceptable. If anything, getting an NHS would at least change your politics to something more useful to you, the people.
Anonymous
>>3123796 And a fully free market system would save you even more than that.
Anonymous
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>>3123801 Guess what, ancient civilizations got it right in some places where we haven't.
Anonymous
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>>3123801 >Granted, we have lots of (sensationalised melodramatic) horror stories about NHS Haha, put your head in the sand and go back to reading the Guardian you giant faggot. The NHS is a total joke.
Anonymous
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>>3123796 Fucking A dude, come on. There is multiple fucking posts explaining this shit already.
At least these
>>3123172 >>3123252 >>3123366 And especially
>>3123443 Anonymous
>>3123805 1. Free market
2. Market gets chopped down to the few surviving companies
3. Those companies can charge exorbitant prices for things people need
4. Note: Not "want", "need". In the sense of "We can't boycott this or we will die."
Anonymous
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I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare.
Anonymous
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fact us spends more on healthcare than uk, uk has universal
NuBlackAnon !!z6ldXGL61
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>>3121300 uh.. Conrail and USRA bro, AMTRACK, HUDs, Housing Projects, Farming Subsides, clothes I'll give to you though!
Anonymous
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>>3123805 Fully free market does not exist.
Anonymous
>>3123805 Possibly, but there's no developed country with a fully free-market system that we can take as a model to see how well it works. Nobody really knows how a totally free system would function. On the other hand there are plenty of models to show us how a UHC system might work, and though they're all screwed up in their own ways they're not nearly as screwed up as we are right now
Anonymous
>>3123816 >4. Free entry into the market allows new competitors to charge above marginal cost but below monopoly rent, thus gaining profits and market share, forcing old and ineffective monopolies to reduce costs to marginal cost. Fixed that for you.
Anonymous
>>3123838 >4. New arrivals into the market are instantly crushed by the cutthroat tactics and size advantage of the monopoly, before so much as a commercial can be played Fixed that for you again.
Anonymous
>>3123828 There's historical evidence, we can see trends based on degree of government interference, and we have theoretical backing.
There's really nothing that makes health care special in respect to how it would work with a free market.
Anonymous
>>3123838 They don't teach people economics in Europe so you can't blame them for spouting some socialist propaganda crap whenever somebody mentions anything to do with the free-market.
I think they just get some confused speech from their parents about how capitalists and the free market killed their nazi grandparents or someshit and their public education takes it from there.
Anonymous
>>3123845 Can't crush them all, bro.
>>3123852 Nah, not really. They're just brainwashed into letting all responsibility for their life go and become scared of anything that would penalize failure, like capitalism or grades or unequal payment for shittier jobs and what not. At least that's my experience.
Anonymous
>>3123849 No. You can't just treat healthcare like any other commodity because there are human rights issues when access becomes prohibitively expensive. The ups and downs of the market have the capacity to make it so that periodically many people won't be able to pay for doctors or the quality of care they get will be substandard.
Even if you don't see this as a rights issue, you have to concede that people are willing to bankrupt themselves on health issues because it is literally life or death for them, and so a system that overcharges for basic services is likely to develop again without oversight
Anonymous
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>>3123863 >They're just brainwashed into letting all responsibility for their life go and become scared of anything that would penalize failure, like capitalism or grades or unequal payment for shittier jobs and what not. At least that's my experience. You jingoistic blinkered idiot.
Anonymous
>>3123863 >Can't crush them all, bro. Actually, yeah, you kinda' could.
"Hurr de durr, I've got mah 3 million start-up monies."
"Ohai. I've got billions of dollars in *my own* pocket. I can actually afford to *pay* my customers to buy my product until you're desperate enough to be subsumed into my gigantic body. Then I'll go back to charging $50 for a tech support call."
Anonymous
>>3123443 There's no problem with having both a private and public sector. The difference lies with who sets the price floor. In countries where anybody can get public health care it's obvious that the private sector has to rein in costs to stay competitive. Which means efficient use of resources both at public and private levels. In the US they've made the decision to let the market set the overall prices, which has lead to an incredible waste of resources and forcing public programs like Medicare to up remuneration close to private levels or else the doctors will be reluctant to treat publicly covered patients. About the only competitive advantage Medicare has is that doctors find it a lot easier to deal with Medicare's bureaucracy than private insurers'.
Anonymous
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>>3123863 Coca-cola damn near did it, at least insofar as there were absolutely no real competitors to their brand until they fucked up and let Pepsi get away.
Anonymous
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>>3123865 Indeed, I don't see it as a right issue. It can't be a human right if it doesn't apply for every human in existence. Health care, if it doesn't exist in sufficient quantities, cannot be supplied to all humans in existence. Ergo, it is not a right (but it is important, and a great goal to strive towards).
Indeed, a system of overcharging for basic service might arise. And, like I described in
>>3123838 it wouldn't last forever. The economy seeks equilibrium.
Anonymous
You're close, but no cigar. The Republican party obviously doesn't want smaller government either, and indeed, they seem to have quietly stopped pretending that they do over the last few years. The reason for their opposition to UHC is twofold:
Anonymous
>>3123876 See, I have no idea how this would work.
The government run post-office cannot even compete with private postal services like Fed-Ex.
If you had both private and public hospitals, I can picture the government-run hospitals being run like the VA is today and public healthcare would be an inferior service that people would only want if they could not afford anything better.
This is how the system works in a lot of countries, like China and South America. The public hospitals are horrible places akin to the local Social Security office in the USA only 20 times worst.
The doctors get shitty pay, and like VA and Army hospitals, only the crappy or inexperienced doctors work there and accept the lower salaries because nobody else will hire them and they have job security.
Needless to say, there isn't much incentive to excel in that enviroment anyways.
Anonymous
>>3123873 So, a monopoly has to weaken itself AND decrease prices to eliminate it competitors. Yeah, that's really sustainable.
Anonymous
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Anonymous
>>3123893 I think the republican party doesn't want UHC because it would be extremely expensive and would end up being a massive drain on the budget, and they'd have to raise taxes like crazy to even think about affording it.
The government cannot even really fund Social Security anymore due to its insane cost. How would UHC be any different?
Anonymous
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>>3123926 it is when your competitors aren't national. While you're charging under cost in one area, you have the prices jacked up in an area that you have under control.
What does this do? it ends up that you make a net profit, even though certain places are taking a loss. It also has the added benefit of ruining your competitor's business.
Anonymous
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>>3123923 fffffffuuuuuuu...!
It's not difficult: Worse than anal sex with Hitler; that's the worst thing ever!
It's almost as bad as lose/loose. Gah!
Anonymous
>>3123934 Ok, well there are a lot of things people do and don't do to be healthy.
Eating right, excericising, not smoking or doing drugs. Those are major things nobody ever does. So the healthcare system needs to provide for everyone.
So... you have tons of people that are lazy, fat chain-smokers that are suddenly reciving expensive treatement at your expense. That'd suck, espeically since you try to stay healthy and are not nearly that much of a strain on the system.
Ok, so how about we just deny service to unhealthy people so the government can afford to take care of the healthy guys. Or maybe over a tax reward/punishment to people that don't lead a healthy lifestyle?
Tax the shit out of cigarettes, we can do that, might help off-set the cost.
We could tax the shit out of food, that'd help people eat less, maybe?
Even better we could mandate government-run excericise programs. You would just have to turn on your TV at 7am and follow along with the TV program.
Anonymous
>>3123923 again, moving to UHC _cuts costs_ across the board, it's like going to a cheaper phone plan
>>3123939 the VA is actually really well-run, it's a great example for what our national health system could be like. my grandfather is an internationally renowned kidney specialist who worked on refining the first dialysis machines, and he has worked at the VA for his entire career by choice
Anonymous
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>>3123974 " Smith ! " screamed the shrewish voice from the telescreen. " 6079 Smith W. ! Yes, you ! Bend lower, please ! You can do better than that. You're not trying. Lower, please ! That's better, comrade. Now stand at ease, the whole squad, and watch me "
Anonymous
>>3124004 For a non-American, could you please explain what the VA is?
Anonymous
>>3124004 VA runs as well as it does because it serves a fairly limited portion of the population, and recieves a large budget because no matter who is in office, they can all agree that the VA could use a little more money.
Republicans lurve their military types and Democrats lurve to throw money at welfare systems like the VA.
Also, people get upset when they hear horror stories about veteran/military hospitals doing something wrong because of a lack of budget.
Even with all that, the VA is still not quite as good as typical for-profit-hospital.
Anonymous
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>>3123974 Those operations are so pricy because the price of healthcare is so insanely artificially inflated thanks to insurance and malpractice and it being necessary for general human survival.
Anonymous
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ITT: libertarians with trust funds say stupid shit.
Anonymous
>>3124004 I hope your grandfather dies. I really do.
Anonymous
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>>3124034 I don't think you've ever seen a typical for-profit hospital if you're making that kind of statement.
Anonymous
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>>3124023 Veteran's Affairs.
Concerning the benefits military veterans receive as part of the deal they get for signing into our ever-active military and going to wars all the time and shit.
Includes everything from college money to free/cheap healthcare at the VA hospitals.
Anonymous
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>>3124034 Ah, some sort of army veteran's hospital.
Anonymous
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>>3124023 Department of Veteran's Affairs.
Deals with health and other concerns of veterans.
Anonymous
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I'm a veteran, and the VA hospitals are not that bad.
Anonymous
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Surprisingly in a free market system monopolies are the exception. A more common formation is a guild or "concern" where competitors agree to take a share of the market each and form a general marketing concern to increase the overall market size.
Anonymous
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>It's cool to hate things that are popular. It implies that I have refined tastes as well as secret knowledge of The Truth that the Proletariat lacks.
Anonymous
Anonymous
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This thread turned out very nicely.
Anonymous
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>>3120189 no it's because private companies' bosses would profit less, and they're the ones running the show. no one cares about shitty republicans
/thread
Anonymous
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Frenchfag reporting.
