/tg/ - Traditional Games » Thread #14742632

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 00:16:00 No.14742632 View View Reply Original Report

How is this game? I've only recently entered the RPG world and started with 3.5 DnD. I understand Pathfinder is pretty much the same rules set with some of the balancing issues fixed.

How does it play? Is it still in the Dungeons and Dragons universe? Does it have its own fluff? I'm really curious about it as Dungeons and Dragons is kinda getting on my nerves. I also hope to run a campaign one day and don't want a thousand books just to do it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 01:58:00 No.14743258 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743224
Wut? No, there's still plenty of bitching, full of all the old, usual complaints and logical fallacies. Same for people bitching in PF, really. Take
>>14743214
Bitching about CR. In PF, CR actually means something. It isn't quite as accurate as 4e's system, but it's worlds better than 3.5. Even 4e has had inaccurate "CR" problems. Needle Drake Swarm, pre-errata, anyone?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 01:59:00 No.14743268 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743228
Beautiful, right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:00:00 No.14743273 Report

Quoted By: >>14743311 >>14743405

>>14743224
Bitching is a beloved past-time of the neckbeard. That's how this shit rolls, besides some of us think verisimilitude/immersion is better than game balance, though often for different reasons.

I prefer the "real life isn't balanced, why the fuck should my game be balanced? The real world equivalent of a wizard is vastly superior to the real life fighter, so why the fuck should they be equals in games?" approach, but to each their own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:28:00 No.14743311 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743273
> fuck anyone who wants to play a non-caster
Well ok then.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:37:00 No.14743353 Report

Quoted By: >>14744195

>>14743172
>the Mythos creatures like Yog-Sothoth and friends are explicitly mentioned by name
> Barsoom-esque planetary romance and hard sci-fi, with jovian gas-bag creatures
>xenomorph-esque aliens that come out of a meteor

Wait what? I've heard that Golarion is the weakest part of Pathfinder and that it's very unimaginative. That doesn't sound unimaginative, that sounds AWESOME.

Self-conscious enough not to be the naive Forgotten Realms, but not random and silly like Eberron's "lol we have magical trains".

Do tell more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:38:00 No.14743357 Report

Quoted By:

check out the Inner Sea World Guide for more fluff about Golarion

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:47:00 No.14743405 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743273
What the fuck is the real world equivalent to a wizard?

Or, for that matter, a goddamn fighter?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:48:00 No.14743407 Report

Quoted By: >>14743434 >>14744115

It's pretty much 3.5e DnD. It doesn't really fix any balancing issues mechanically, they just aren't as bad because there are less classes and feats overall at this stage of its release. Fighter types are still weak as shit compared to casters past the sweet spot levels for instance.

Like 3.5, if it's not minmaxed, it plays pretty well in the sweet spot range (levels 5-9 or so), and even beyond to the mid teens, but it's still 3.5e, so if you didn't like that, pathfinder won't come out and knock yoru socks off. The books are beautiful though - I prefer their art theme to the dungeonpunk of 3e.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:52:00 No.14743434 Report

Quoted By: >>14743442 >>14743740

>>14743407
>Dungeonpunk

That's a thing?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:53:00 No.14743442 Report

Quoted By: >>14743477

>>14743434
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunkPunk

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 02:57:00 No.14743456 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743098
You heard it here folks, Lovecraft and Gygax modules = JRPGs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 03:01:00 No.14743477 Report

Quoted By: >>14743740

>>14743442
Don't really see how the 3.5 artwork fits a 'punk' feel, though. Also if it does, how does the Pathfinder art not?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 03:48:00 No.14743740 Report

Quoted By: >>14743784

>>14743434
>>14743477
Dungeonpunk is that thing where a fantasy setting uses lots of magic and a gritty, cynical tone to replicate the gritty noir feel of Punk settings. So, you get goblin underclasses demanding equal rights, illegal trade in forbidden spell components, wizard private detectives with leather dusters and wands of magic missle, magic trains, and whatnot. Essentially, any sufficiently advanced and widely applied magic is indistinguisable from technology.

See Eberron. 3.5 in general did NOT have a dungeon-punk feel. Eberron did. Dungeonpunk also creeps into most games, when DMs throw anachronisms into ostensibly midieval fantasy settings for the sake of humor (the city watch functions kind of like a modern police force, bards form actual bands that sell concert tickets and have legions of fans).

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 03:53:00 No.14743784 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743740

Alright, see that's why I was confused. I definitely see it in Eberron.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 03:55:00 No.14743790 Report

Quoted By: >>14744115

Any adept Pathfinder/3.5 players fancy doing me a favor by making up a quick template for a Phyrexian PC?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 04:04:00 No.14743850 Report

Quoted By:

>Soccerors

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 04:51:00 No.14744115 Report

Quoted By: >>14744182 >>14744185

>>14743790
Give me some fluff to read. I'm not going to go searching though a decade woth of magic card info t try and figure out what a phyrexian actually is, but it you can give me the basics, and it doesn't sound like on of the new races in the Bestiary 2 that might qualify for phyrexian, then I'll work something up for you.

>>14743407
Fighters are less versatile, but kill things just as fast as a wizard. They actually kill things better, since they actually, you know, KILL things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:02:00 No.14744172 Report

Quoted By:

Thank god for pathfinder!

Fighters were so overpowered in 3.5 and my wizard never had a chance!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:04:00 No.14744182 Report

Quoted By: >>14746105

>>14744115
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/137

Planeswalker's Guide to New Phyrexia, pretty much sums it all up.

Looking mostly toward the Machine Orthodoxy which is the very first part.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:04:00 No.14744185 Report

Quoted By: >>14744230

>>14744115
>Kill things as fast as Wizards
>Save-or-dies/suck still exsist

Haha, no

Gay Skull

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Gay Skull Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:06:00 No.14744195 Report

Quoted By: >>14744371

>>14743353
Never heard that before. Personally, I love the setting. It gives you a LOT of options for what kind of adventure you want to run. Desert campaign with genies? Try Katapesh, Qadira, or Thuvia. Pirate campaign? Go to the Shackles, the Sodden Lands, Sargava, or Mediogalti Island. Want gothic horror? Ustalav is all about that shit.

As anon said, the Inner Sea World Guide has info on each country/region, as well as the history of the world and other planes. I've been playing Pathfinder for about 7 months now and I love it.

Also, because it deserves mentioning, the art is fantastic. Wayne Reynolds does a stellar job (though a lot of the characters can be very "busy").

Gay Skull

Gay Skull Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:10:00 No.14744230 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744185
Except they really don't. Spells like Finger of Death were changed to do a massive amount of damage, but there are no more save or die spells.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:10:00 No.14744236 Report

Quoted By: >>14744244 >>14744267 >>14744273 >>14744407 >>14744780 >>14744900

Forget Pathfinder. Go for Fantasy Craft. It's a work of game design art, pure brilliance.

Instead of spend all their time filing the serial numbers off of 3.5 and stirring up the Hurr Durr 4e hate edition war hornets nest, its developers actually took the time to understand the weaknesses of the 3.5 system, fix them, and whip up a dose of pure awesomeness.

Spycraft was a great take on "modern gaming" using the d20 system, and Fantasy Craft exceeds it in all aspects for fantasy gaming. I can't rave about it enough.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:12:00 No.14744244 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744236

Listen to this fine gentleman

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:15:00 No.14744267 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744236

I agree (though my main group plays 4e, and I like it as well). But be sure to get the second printing, it incorprates all the errata and some clarifications of trickier aspects.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:16:00 No.14744273 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744236
Pathfinder for hack'n'slash.
Fantasy Craft for campaigns.
That be my preference.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:21:00 No.14744314 Report

Quoted By:

>>14742632

D&D and Pathfinder corebooks are both rules independent of settings.

Only buy Pathfinder if you dont have D&D 3.5 already otherwise you are just paying for eyecandy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:29:00 No.14744371 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744195
>Wayne Reynolds does a stellar job (though a lot of the characters can be very "busy").
It's pretty much any time a character is posed, there's too much shit all over it. If there's some action going on he throws less clutter at it and comes out with better art.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:33:00 No.14744407 Report

Quoted By: >>14744463 >>14744517 >>14744526 >>14745027

>>14744236
What's so good about it ?

I skimmed through the pdf when it went out, noticed that it used action points (ugh), that there was two classes for rogues (gah), and closed it. But from time to time in pathfinder threads someone say that it's the awesomest and leaves without explaining.
I'm curious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:40:00 No.14744463 Report

Quoted By: >>14744501

>>14744407

you have the pdf read it

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:43:00 No.14744485 Report

Quoted By: >>14744929

As someone who was just invited to an online Pathfinder game and who has been trying to make a character, I will attest that Pathfinder "fixes" things that were never really problems in 3.5 and then aggravates a lot of its worst problems by throwing more bookkeeping on top of everything. Most damningly, it suffers from 3.5's greatest sin, which was throwing lots of class features and bonuses onto characters which are useless two to three levels later, or worse yet, as soon as you get them. Take, for example, the sorcerer bloodlines. You get some bonus spells and some occasionally neat effects, but it really boils down to a 3 + ability mod power that is objectively worse than any 1st level spell you could want to cast. By level 3, these exist only as desperation maneuvers or to dispatch fodder enemies, which because of how poorly the challenge rating system works, are simply uninteresting and unthreatening bumps between you and the more interesting monster.

What a pile of garbage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:46:00 No.14744501 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744463
Read it once, didn't notice anything so good. Please explain.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:47:00 No.14744517 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744407
Assassin and Burglar are VERY different classes. Assassin is a social, hide-in-plain-sight kind of guy. Walks right through your front door after shooting the shit with your guards, crashes your party, listens to your stories and makes comments that makes you want to tell more, gets you to show him your trophy room, and slits your throat as you're describing how you shot the gazelle whose head is sticking out of your wall.

Burglar is the classic rogue that sneaks in your window, takes all your jewelry while you're in the bathroom, and shoves a bear trap in your mattress.

Then you have Explorer which is Indiana Jones.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:48:00 No.14744526 Report

Quoted By: >>14744611

>>14744407

The classes and character building offer more variety, and are more flexible (what do you mean there are two "rogue classes"), combat is smooth as silk, but fun/suspenseful, and has a less "the mechanics matter more than the flavor" feel, and I can't go on long enough about how nice the section on adversary generation is for GMs, and how much easier it is in general to deal with as a GM.

It's just a brilliant permutation of the D20 system.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:50:00 No.14744534 Report

Quoted By:

>I skimmed through the pdf when it went out, noticed that it used action points (ugh), that there was two classes for rogues (gah), and closed it.
>Read it once
You didn't even read the shit you specifically claim to have read. You looked at the pictures and looked at the words in larger font.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 05:58:00 No.14744611 Report

Quoted By: >>14744637

>>14744526
I meant the burglar/assassin separation. For an adventurer the two professions go together, and I liked that 3e joined them as one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:01:00 No.14744637 Report

Quoted By: >>14744657 >>14744774

>>14744611

But they don't go together. One is a social infiltrator, the other is a second floor man. That Fantasy Craft lets you flesh them both out richly and fully is a feature that Pathfinder/3.5 failed to allow.

They are both very different, very solid character archetypes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:03:00 No.14744657 Report

Quoted By: >>14744676

>>14744637

Yeah, no shit heh - even AD&D had Assassin and Thief as seperate classes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:04:00 No.14744676 Report

Quoted By: >>14744726

>>14744657

Please read the book and dont troll. Also rememeber that opinions=/=facts

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:05:00 No.14744682 Report

Quoted By:

Another thread ruined by the FantasyCraft viral marketer samefag.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:09:00 No.14744726 Report

Quoted By: >>14744800

>>14744676

I read the book, you seem to be the one making claims which make no sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:15:00 No.14744774 Report

Quoted By: >>14745110

>>14744637
I don't deny that they are different, or solid (whatever that means), I'm saying that a roguish adventurer needs versatility between social, combat and utilitary/athletic skills.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:16:00 No.14744780 Report

Quoted By: >>14744800 >>14744920

>>14744236
>one in every pathfinder thread
go make your own fucking threads about FC and quit trying to hijack the pathfinder threads

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:18:00 No.14744800 Report

Quoted By: >>14744820 >>14744827 >>14745105

>>14744726

Easy bro. If you've read it and haven't seen anything interesting then probably is not the game for you, thats all.

Some of the things I like about fantasy craft are:

* The way the NPCs are constructed (scalable)
* The starting races it comes with
* Useful Non combat classes
* Useful social rules (if you dont like rules for things outside combat this is still useful for inspiration)
* Interesting and logic world building chapter
* Monsters included in corebook

>>14744780

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:20:00 No.14744820 Report

Quoted By: >>14744879 >>14745076

>>14744800

So does FC have templates for non-corebook races, or a simple method of homebrewing?

Genuine question.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:21:00 No.14744827 Report

Quoted By: >>14744879 >>14744900 >>14744961

>>14744800
i am more annoyed then mad because almost every pathfinder thread is derailed by that FC viral-marketing samefag

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:26:00 No.14744879 Report

Quoted By: >>14744904 >>14744913

>>14744820

Hombrew, but IMO is very easy to come with your own thanks to the racial feats and specialities.

>>14744827

Read the first post and you will notice that this is not a Pathfinder thread

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:28:00 No.14744900 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744827

Also I have to say>>14744236is not the most polite way to enter a discution.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:29:00 No.14744904 Report

Quoted By: >>14744971

>>14744879
My good man, you don't sound like a salesman or spokesperson at all!

Is it true that 9 out of 10 customers recommend FantasyCraft over competing Fantasy and/or Craft related games?

Please tell me how I can save 15% or more by buying FantasyCraft products right now!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:29:00 No.14744913 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744879
you really need to get your eyes checked.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:30:00 No.14744920 Report

Quoted By: >>14744943

>>14744780
>OPs annoyed with DnD and is considering PF
>Someone suggests something that actually isn't DnD.
>Anon baaaaaaaaaws

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:30:00 No.14744929 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744485
so wait your bitches about getting extra perks that dont actually take away from the character?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:32:00 No.14744943 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744920
who said i was the OP?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:32:00 No.14744949 Report

Quoted By:

>How is this game? I've only recently entered the RPG world and started with 3.5 DnD. I understand Pathfinder is pretty much the same rules set with some of the balancing issues fixed.

Thats pretty much it, I can really only recomend it if you really liked 3.5, if not this will not change your mind.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:33:00 No.14744953 Report

Quoted By: >>14745105 >>14745134

I found fantasycraft kind of overrated. It didn't seem to offer anything that Pathfinder hadn't already offered aside from a whole whack of unnecessary mechanics. Unless you consider being able to play a dragon a worthwhile addition to a game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:33:00 No.14744961 Report

Quoted By: >>14745043

>>14744827

What makes you think it's a samefag? There are multiple permutation of the D20 system, besides Pathfinder, and the OP even stated he was looking for a minimum of books to do it. Fantasy Craft is one of those permutations, and one it seems many of us enjoy, because unless I've developed a severe personality disorder, I'm not the only one posting about it as a suggestion.

The OP indicated he was looking for an alternative to D&D, and that he was hoping to run a campaign, and keep the book purchases to a minimum. Well guess what. Fantasy Craft works very well for campaign style play, offers great support to the GM running it, and it actually comes in one book to boot.

If you're so butthurt about hearing about games other than your personal favorite, all I can do is offer you my sympathies, and suggest you can your nerd rage and get over it.

Cheers, mate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:34:00 No.14744971 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744904

I'm not a salesman but the answer is simple. PF core comes with both Player and GM stuff while Fantasy craft comes with all player, GM and monster stuff.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:38:00 No.14745017 Report

Quoted By: >>14745027 >>14745061 >>14745110

>>14742632
>there was two classes for rogues

No there aren't.

Think of the burglar as Sam Fischer or Solid Snake, while the Assassin is Agent 47 from the Hitman series.

It's the difference between shadows and disguises; between not being seen at all, and not being notable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:39:00 No.14745027 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745017

I intended to address>>14744407

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:40:00 No.14745039 Report

Quoted By:

ITT: OP asks about how PF is different from 3.5
FantasyCraft fags boast and anger PF fags.
The end.

What have we learnt from this? That PF is a slight improvement from 3.5 and that FantasyCraft is another d20 D&D game built around a different concept and way of approaching D&D from 3.5 and PF.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:40:00 No.14745043 Report

Quoted By: >>14745105 >>14745115

>>14744961
It's painfully obvious there's only one of you posting about FantasyCraft. Every post you make is the same sales pitch.

It's a poorly written D20 game full of meta-abilities and other retarded things that most people are turned off by.

Nobody who has tried it, not even the FLGS store owner, is this god damn positive about it, nor any game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:41:00 No.14745061 Report

Quoted By: >>14745097 >>14745113 >>14745115

>>14745017
Why do you have to niche PC classes so much? A sneaky character should be able to assassinate and steal shit, with different levels of success depending on what you specialize in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:43:00 No.14745076 Report

Quoted By:

>>14744820

It doesn't really offer templates for PCs of races other than those in the core. One of the drawbacks of a single core book. We don't use the companion books, just the core, so I'm not sure if they ever do build such a system into the game (I'm kind of surprised they didn't honestly).

For NPCs/monsters, there's an entire chapter which provides a streamlined system for constructing them that works pretty well, letting you fairly quickly build up varied adversaries that are a solid match for the PCs at a given level. One of my favorite features as a GM really.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:43:00 No.14745078 Report

Quoted By: >>14745105 >>14745113

ITT people need mechanics to roleplay

D&D truely creates the worst role players.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:45:00 No.14745097 Report

Quoted By: >>14745155 >>14745189

>>14745061

Because variety is good? I mean, think in movies, is every cat burglar an expert assassin? Is every assassin an expert cat burglar? If you want a little of both, you can multiclass too. It actually works pretty well in the game. (no comment on Pathfinder multiclassing)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:46:00 No.14745105 Report

Quoted By: >>14745127

>>14744953

Maybe you are right but you have to remember that Pathfinder have alot more books than Fantasy Craft. And one of the OP concerns is to keep books at minimum.

>>14745043

Nice opinion-baseless post

>>14745078see>>14744800

Sadly this Pathfinder thread is like 250% more active since the Fantasy Craft post

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:46:00 No.14745110 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745017
See>>14744774
I like characters that can choose between shadows and disguises according to his needs. That's necessary for a long adventuring career.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:46:00 No.14745113 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745061
Isn't that exactly why you want classes?

>>14745078
Actually, since you can roleplay without mechanics, and all they do is support the roleplaying, a purely mechanical discussion is prefect for decide what mechanics would help you and your players roleplay the best.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:46:00 No.14745115 Report

Quoted By: >>14745145

>>14745043

Actually there are quite a number of people on /tg/ who like Fantasy Craft--a single person can't sustain an entire thread.

>>14745061

It's based around the concept of archetypes and fundamental types of characters. You're never locked into a single class, after all, and if you want to have a character who can pull off the acrobatic hands-on "sneaky" stuff while also being able to talk himself past some guards and etc., then it's a simple matter of multiclassing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:48:00 No.14745127 Report

Quoted By: >>14745185

>>14745105
You imply that fantasycraft isn't meant to be a more "true version of D&D" like pathfinder in reaction to 4th edition and other shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:49:00 No.14745134 Report

Quoted By: >>14745153 >>14745170

>>14744953
>It didn't seem to offer anything that Pathfinder hadn't already offered aside from a whole whack of unnecessary mechanics.

That's a matter of taste. If you don't find that aspect of Fantasy Craft appealing (i.e. it tries to provide mechanics for every type of fantasy story you could possibly want, from stuff like a Song of Ice and Fire to the Conan adventures) then the system probably isn't for you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:50:00 No.14745145 Report

Quoted By: >>14745156 >>14745163 >>14745170

>>14745115
Actually, a single person can easily sustain a thread. In this case it's only a question of a single person provoking lots of people to respond to keep the thread alive. It's easy to see when someone is giving an honest opinion about something and when they are reciting selling points.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:51:00 No.14745153 Report

Quoted By: >>14745173

>>14745134
I didn't say it was bad, just overrated. That isn't hard to believe since FC fans tend to act like it's the second coming of the messiah.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:51:00 No.14745155 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745097
You wouldn't even have to multiclass. Origin skills and feat selection could set it up pretty well. You would just have to choose between the dodge anything messy-killing ninja abilities of the Burglar or the superpoison smoothtalking James Bond abilities of the Assassin.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:51:00 No.14745156 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745145

I mean "Fantasy Craft General" threads, which we've had in the past.

Do you mean to suggest that one person would really go through the hassle of having a sustained conversation with himself for several hours?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:52:00 No.14745163 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745145

So you think I dont honestly like Fantasy Craft?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:52:00 No.14745170 Report

Quoted By: >>14745204

I'm>>14745145
this
>>14745134
is what I'm talking about:

>mechanics for every type of fantasy story you could possibly want, from stuff like a Song of Ice and Fire to the Conan adventures

This is something you read on the back of the book or on a poster in the game store, not something a real person says.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:53:00 No.14745173 Report

Quoted By: >>14745187 >>14745188

>>14745153

They just like to discuss the system whenever possible on /tg/, since /tg/ rarely talks about it otherwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:54:00 No.14745185 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745127
You imply that Spycraft hasn't been around a long time and that Fantasy Craft isn't just fantasy-themed Spycraft.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:54:00 No.14745187 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745173

Kind of like the Pathfinder folks? It's a 4e world, we're all a little disenfranchised if we don't like it. At least no one's mentioned Runequest or WFRP yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:54:00 No.14745188 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745173

Clever man. /tg/ is mainly WH40k and Pathfinder stuff

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:54:00 No.14745189 Report

Quoted By: >>14745215 >>14745230 >>14745274

>>14745097
>Because variety is good?
Problem is, you're an adventuring party and needs to meet repeated and varieed challenges.
In movies, characters find themselves most often in a single environment, and set their own goals according to their ability.
My rogues are usually adventurers before they are hitmen or burglars, they do not occupy their days robbing houses and taking assassinations contracts. for a living

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:56:00 No.14745204 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745170

I'm not sure how else you might expect me to summarize the system, considering that is really what it attempts to do, and the other dude's complaint was that he was recognizing a lot of that material as "unnecessary." Rules for managing contacts and housing and bonuses for eating specific foods may certainly seem that way if you just want to run the system as a combat simulator, but they're there for a reason.

What would you have me say instead?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:57:00 No.14745215 Report

Quoted By: >>14745259 >>14745321

>>14745189
So you're looking for Sage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 06:58:00 No.14745230 Report

Quoted By: >>14745259 >>14745275

>>14745189

Your rogues sound rather narrow and unimaginative.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:01:00 No.14745259 Report

Quoted By: >>14745335 >>14745346

>>14745215
Am I ?
>>14745230
Because I want them to be versatile ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:02:00 No.14745274 Report

Quoted By: >>14745308

>>14745189
>My rogues are usually adventurers before they are hitmen or burglars, they do not occupy their days robbing houses and taking assassinations contracts. for a living

I don't get your point. Isn't this already handled via lifestyle, downtime checks, and specialties.

Besides, it seems clear that taking levels primarily in burglar is supposed to indicate a sort of career thief. Just check out their game-breaker (that is, level 14 ability)

>You’ve carved out a tidy little empire for yourself. At Level 14, your maximum Prizes increase by 4 and you gain 400 Reputation that must immediately be spent on contacts, holdings, or magic items.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:02:00 No.14745275 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745230
REading clomeprhension duDUUUUUUUURrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:06:00 No.14745308 Report

Quoted By: >>14745445

>>14745274
My point that a career thief fit better as a NPC than a PC. I think that one profession should not translate in the game as one base class.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO unknown.jpg, 230KiB, 1600x1200

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:07:00 No.14745318 Report

Quoted By:

So, 3.5 question, how would one handle a Phyrexian Priest of Norn?

I suspected I'd have to take class levels in Fleshwarper from Lords of Madness, but those are non-lawful (unless this can just be houseruled out) since Phyrexians are hardcore lawful evil. Maybe start out with a few class levels in wizard/cleric.

Not sure. Any thoughts, /tg/? Anything for a race template?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:07:00 No.14745321 Report

Quoted By: >>14745365 >>14745524

>>14745215
I think you mean he's looking for a good game which doesn't lock someone into a tiny little box at class selection.

One of the most interesting parts of GMing a published adventure or campaign is to read the description and then see which classes the character actually has.

"That crazy old hermit with a feline companion was actually a rogue?"

The 3.5/PF class system was not broken. In fact, it was one of the good parts of D20. You were surprisingly free despite how stereotypical the classes seemed. The FantasyCraft classes are in comparison almost like pre-generated characters. No thought required.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:08:00 No.14745335 Report

Quoted By: >>14745400

>>14745259

Sage is the go-to wildcard class that can fill a variety of party roles depending on how you build it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:09:00 No.14745346 Report

Quoted By: >>14745400

>>14745259

Because you lump them into the "HURR DURR ADVENTURER" mold that makes a lot of our eyes roll?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:11:00 No.14745365 Report

Quoted By: >>14745385 >>14745446

>>14745321

This just isn't true. With the better multiclassing, and broader amount of variety in class, I find FC characters far more varied and rich than Pathfinder characters, who usually are described more the class they're constrained to than well, the OTHER stuff that goes into the character.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:13:00 No.14745385 Report

Quoted By: >>14745545

>>14745365
Bullshit. I can stat a 3.5 or PF fighter as almost any of the classes in FC.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:15:00 No.14745400 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745346
Well I do expect ADVENTURE in my games, which means ADVENTURER when it's not a one-shot or horror game. I don't see where you get the HURR DURR part, though.

>>14745335
I'd prefer if it was covered by the rest of the base classes. I already disliked the dabbler classe (was it factotum ?) in 3.x.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:18:00 No.14745437 Report

Quoted By: >>14745466

Using terms like
>special character
>session
>scene
>teammates
and people still jump on 4e for being too meta?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:19:00 No.14745439 Report

Quoted By:

lol, sure yo can

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:20:00 No.14745445 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745308

The things to take into account, however, is that your implementation of the concept of a rogue is but one of many, and that Fantasy Craft doesn't nearly lock you into one implementation when you take the class as you're thinking. Just check their example PC Concepts for the class.

Depending on your campaign, a Burglar could be...

• A danger junkie stealing the most highly guarded prizes for the thrill alone
• A pit fighting champion relying on speed and wits tostay on top
• A ninja penetrating fortresses and manor houses to steal secrets and lives
• A criminal mastermind leading a band of cutthroats to glory and riches
• A traveling merchant fending off bandits and other peril on the road

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:20:00 No.14745446 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745365
you are forgetting about the Archetypes in the Advance Player's Guide

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:21:00 No.14745452 Report

Quoted By: >>14745473 >>14745488

I'll say one thing. Pathfinder's players seem to corner the market on nerd rage/system partisanship. I never expected other iterations of d20 to attract their rage and bullshit as much as 4e did. Go you marvelous munchkin version warriors, go! If you can't sell your system, attack all the others!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:22:00 No.14745466 Report

Quoted By: >>14745488

>>14745437
How are terms a bad thing? If they are too much for you i sugest your drop rules all together and just go freeform.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:23:00 No.14745472 Report

Quoted By: >>14745488

ITT: People can't like something I don't; it must be those damn samefags.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:23:00 No.14745473 Report

Quoted By: >>14745504 >>14745506

>>14745452
Pathetically jealous FantasyCraft viral marketer. You do realize Paizo's Pathfinder are neck-and-neck with Hasbro's D&D 4e right now? Nobody plays your game because it's shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:24:00 No.14745488 Report

Quoted By: >>14745528

>>14745452
>>14745466
>>14745472
So much samefag it hurts my brain :(

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:26:00 No.14745504 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745473

HAH! What color is the sky in your world?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:26:00 No.14745506 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745473
Hahaha, no they aren't. They tied 4e in a poll based on a very little amount of marketing information, and did it only ONCE.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:26:00 No.14745507 Report

Quoted By: >>14745514

First it was 3.5 vs 4e, now its Pathfinder vs Fantasy Craft

You truly are just as bad as /v.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:27:00 No.14745514 Report

Quoted By: >>14745527

>>14745507
Warhammer Fantasy vs Magic: The Gathering

GO

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:28:00 No.14745524 Report

Quoted By: >>14745576

>>14745321
>The FantasyCraft classes are in comparison almost like pre-generated characters. No thought required.

Are you speaking from personal experience? Have you played the system? I honestly want to know, as this has not been my experience AT ALL.

I mean, the entire point of having base classes, expert classes, and master classes is that each tier is more specific in concept and fluff than the last. With base classes you have stuff like the soldier or the courtier which can be executed literally thousands of different ways, while with expert classes you have the swashbuckler and the paladin, which are a pirate and a religious warrior (well, a warrior with an alignment, at least) respectively.

But even here you're free to decide what KIND of pirate you are, and what KIND of paladin you are (their abilities are based heavily on their alignment, and Fantasy Craft doesn't provide any official alignments in the core book outside of some example ones to help you make your own). Even with Master classes like the regent (a class for PCs that want to be kings and other types of royalty) are very free in letting you decide how to execute the concept.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:29:00 No.14745527 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745514
Not really good match, unless you meant that warhammer invasion card game.
Carry on then.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:29:00 No.14745528 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745488
Nope, that was my first post. Not that I can prove it enough to break through your delusion/trollishness.

No way more than one person can like the same RPG that isn't Pathfinder/4e, a single puppet of a demented corporation is clearly the most logical conclusion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:31:00 No.14745545 Report

Quoted By: >>14745614

>>14745385

If you could do this with the keeper or the Courtier I'd be extremely impressed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:34:00 No.14745576 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745524

This. Don't knock it til you've tried it. I hear that you might even be able to actually read it yourself via the magic of /rs/.

Pathfinder does what it does well, which is provide a platform for 3.5 grognards to play pretty much the D&D high fantasy game they've been playing and loving for ages.

Fantasy Craft is designed to diverge from this, to a broader set of fantasy genres, without being as tied to the 3.5e high fantasy D&D tropes. And it does this well.

Preview them both, decide for yourself. Don't let the nerd raging neckbeards whose self esteem is tied to proving their system is the ONE TRUE GAME ABOVE ALL OTHERS.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:39:00 No.14745614 Report

Quoted By: >>14745639 >>14745679

>>14745545
Both of them can be done via skills and feats. Courtier is a good old diplomancer and Keeper is just a craftbot. Seriously, what do they offer the game? You wanna break the GP limit and bypass role playing through mechanics then go right ahead and play a Courtier. Keeper just breaks the skill system and makes all the other characters feel like non-combat skills are useless.

They are both horribly designed and the only challenge in making the same type of character with a fighter is that the GM would put his foot down when you try to ruin the game for everyone.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:41:00 No.14745639 Report

Quoted By: >>14745675

>>14745614

So you can't do it, and you spew bullshit to try and cover your tracks? Seriously, you should just have kept your mouth shut, or perhaps try to sell Pathfinder on its strong points, rather than making up ridiculous junk like this.

I mean fuck, I play Mongoose RuneQuest II, I have no real vested interest between PFRPG and FC, but I've read both, and know what each offers at least.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:45:00 No.14745675 Report

Quoted By: >>14745823

>>14745639
Of course you can. Skill focus and various skill feats like I said. The difference is that you are "legally" breaking core rules with courtier and keeper, whereas the GM would limit your bullshit if it's not printed in the book. Have you played a campaign with either of the classes you mentioned? They hog the spotlight and make non-combat the most boring affair ever for everyone else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:45:00 No.14745679 Report

Quoted By: >>14745717

>>14745614

And you say that they both completely ruin the the game because you've actually played the game, right? You're not just talking in abstraction?

Because I am seriously puzzled how you got this impression from playing the game. This has not been my experience at all.

And even despite this I'm curious as to how you would really go about replicating a courtier's abilities with a fighter. I don't know Pathfinder, but if a single class allows you to make literally every concept you want, it makes me wonder why the system has classes at all. What's the purpose of the other classes in Pathfinder? Can they, too, be replicated with just a fighter? What do they do that the fighter class can't?

What's more I find it interesting that you should bring up the skills and feats, considering that was also how one would address an earlier poster's concerns about the FC classes being too cookie-cutter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:48:00 No.14745716 Report

Quoted By:

Fun fact - I can't read more than a page of Fantasy Craft without saying to myself, "Fuck this shit." I'm not 100% sure why. Mind you, I can only get a little further into Pathfinder.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:48:00 No.14745717 Report

Quoted By: >>14745851

>>14745679
They can be replicated with almost any PC class from PF since they are just skill whores. Courtier also gets some bullshit anti-role play features but other than that they are nothing more than diplomancers and craftbots like I said. Everything people have complained about when it comes to spellcasters in 3.5 can be said for those two.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:56:00 No.14745790 Report

Quoted By: >>14745842 >>14746006 >>14746260

Alright folks, there's a character I use to stress-test fantasy systems. Whichever of your systems does a better job of realizing it wins.

It's a necromancer monk who can punch someone's skeleton out and immediately animate it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 07:59:00 No.14745823 Report

Quoted By: >>14745874

>>14745675

Actually yeah, I've played games with social monster characters mixed with combat monsters. One of the best campaigns I was ever in involved such a mix. It wasn't in a d20 based game (Warhammer FRP), in fact the differences between the specialists in their fields vs out of their fields was even more vast, and it was an absolute blast.

Different characters opens up the door for more spotlight opportunities to be spread around. And the spotlight doesn't always fall on characters when they're in their environment/playing to their strengths, their weaknesses can be played for great fun as well. A good GM can do a lot more with a flavorful and varied PC group than he can with one that's just combat oriented.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:01:00 No.14745842 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745790
A cleric, sorc or wizard with one level assassin and Quickened Spell metamagic feat?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:02:00 No.14745851 Report

Quoted By: >>14745869 >>14745912

>>14745717

The entire point of the Keeper is that it's a skill specialist, so I can't really see that as a valid criticism.

The courtier, though, really only destroys role-play depending on how you handle diplomacy skills. Even, then, it really doesn't focus on diplomacy skills as much as you would have me believe. The Gifts and Favors, Obligations, Rise to power, beguiling, entourage, hoard, Land and Title, Man of the Court, Sterling Reputation, Master Plan, and Master of Graces all have to do with things other than influence or intimidate checks. Indeed, the class's gamebreaker (never outdone) could easily be applied to such checks, but it could just as easily be applied to ANY skill check.

Have you really determined this by playing the game yourself? I can't help but think your group and your GM must have been exceedingly poor to taint your perception so.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:03:00 No.14745869 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745851
>...and Master of Graces ABILITIES all have...

sorry, fixed

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:04:00 No.14745874 Report

Quoted By: >>14745911 >>14745918 >>14745936

>>14745823
Strengths and weaknesses are one thing, but when one character cannot be reached by any other PC then the group dynamic is lost. It becomes a waiting game or internal conflicts fuck everything into oblivion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:08:00 No.14745911 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745874
>when one character cannot be reached by any other PC

What do you mean by this?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:08:00 No.14745912 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745851
That the class is badly designed at its core is a valid criticism. I don't care if it serves its purpose, if its purpose fucks up the game for everyone else.

Why would I ever take a skill the Keeper is good at? Why would I ever try to grease the gears of NPCs with a Courtier in the party?

They are both badly designed. In a non-FC campaign, you would get cockblocked by the GM if you tried to pull the shit they can do, because a GM cares about the party more than letting individual players dominate and shine.

Still, a fighter, rogue or pretty much anyone from PF can do what those two do by taking feats, maxing out skill ranks and optimizing their stats. It's just that when you bring a diplomancer to the table, your GM will give you the old stink eye and won't let you fuck over his campaign.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:09:00 No.14745918 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745874

Nonsense. I mean seriously. All I can do is assume that your experience in games is extremely limited.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:12:00 No.14745932 Report

Quoted By: >>14745995

It has its own stock, fantasy universe. It's the most 'modern' of the standard dnd tabletop games.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:13:00 No.14745936 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745874
When does that happen?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:15:00 No.14745956 Report

Quoted By: >>14746026

>Why would I ever take a skill the Keeper is good at?
Because it's appropriate for your character concept and background?

>Why would I ever try to grease the gears of NPCs with a Courtier in the party?

Because it's more appropriate for you in character to do so? Because a courtier might not be the best person representing the party to the thieves' guild, wizard's guild, temple of whatever? Because your character positive ties/history with the individuals involved, or the courtier a negative history/social disadvantage? I mean I can keep going on and on here...

Are you familiar with the roleplaying aspect of RPGs?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:19:00 No.14745995 Report

Quoted By: >>14746013

>>14745932
>It's the most 'modern' of the standard dnd tabletop games.

By ripping off a system who's mechanics were stuck in the early 90's?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:20:00 No.14746006 Report

Quoted By: >>14746458

>>14745790
Craftyfag here, this can pretty easily be done by rolling a mage or priest with access to the Death path, taking levels in the Martial Artist base class or the Monk expert class aren't necessary, but could certainly help. Just taking Fist as the level 1 specialty and Martial Arts as the first feat makes you a competent melee fighter.
The mage can get more undead, and can start summoning at level 3, while the priest has to wait to level 5, and only gets 2 create undead spells per scene. The priest, however, synergizes better with the monk expert class, has more attack and survivability, and gains the ability to rebuke undead or summon an avatar of his death God.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:21:00 No.14746013 Report

Quoted By:

>>14745995
Yeah. Though your wording is purposely antagonistic. Nothing was ripped off as the d20 system was created solely to provoke this kind of creation (in addition to spreading word of mouth and getting new blood into an old franchise).

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:22:00 No.14746026 Report

Quoted By: >>14746091 >>14746103 >>14746115 >>14746231

>>14745956
When fluff and mechanics mismatch that badly, you've designed your game poorly.

Like I said, a simple martial combatant from a superior game can replace several of your "distinct" FC classes because PF allows more depth in character creation.

You're not tied down to one role. Like someone else said, these are adventurers. They are expected to work in more than one "scene" and have tools for solving problems in more than one way, as appropriate for their character.

You've basically admitted that FC classes barely serve one role, but does so to the point of absurdity. Without your marketing effort, I doubt anyone would have ever posted about it as it's an utterly forgettable experience.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:29:00 No.14746091 Report

Quoted By: >>14746103 >>14746159

>>14746026
Im sorry, but are you talking about like Pathfinder has any of those things that are missing from FC?
"Classes not tied into one role" are you serius? Warrior and rogue are still just "hit stuff till it dies" classes, try anything different with them and you will only play a handicapped character.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:30:00 No.14746103 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746091
>>14746026
People live in California. Haiti. Japan.

Systems can have flaws, but people will enjoy what they'll enjoy. Trying to dissuade them from that is rude and futile. Particularly since every person has their own favorites, and none of them are flawless.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:30:00 No.14746105 Report

Quoted By: >>14747484

>>14744182
Okay, read through the Pgyrexian stuff you linked me to, and to be honest, it wold be very difficult to make a simple player character race based off of them. At the very least, you'd be looking at a higher than standard race - maybe Lizardman, Dark Creeper, Duergar, or Noble Drow level race, rather than a PC ready race.

On the other hand, it would be fairly easy to make a substandard Phyrexian PC available race, if you would like. By substandard I only refer to the comparisons to the cenobites as portrayed, not as compared to the PC classes. To be honest, Phyrexians as a whole are more of an outsider race than a standard race. But that doesn't make it impossible, only less Phyrexian than you might enjoy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:32:00 No.14746115 Report

Quoted By: >>14746298

>>14746026

You never showed how you could emulate these classes with a PFRPG fighter, when called on it. You don't even seem to have a grasp on the FC system, or what can be done with its character classes, entirely within the acceptable mechanics of the system, and you seem to have little or no grasp of roleplay/character variety outside of your generic "aventurer" fetish.

In the end, I think you've just proven you're a narrowminded player with little experience outside of a very specific sort of gameplay paradigm, and a major chip on your shoulder about systems you clearly don't have any grasp on.

I hope you have fun in your myopic little gaming universe, whatever the case. There's a much richer world of gaming out there, but if you're satisfied with what you've got, so be it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:37:00 No.14746159 Report

Quoted By: >>14746205 >>14746206 >>14746333

>>14746091
I can make a fighter who can be an incredibly powerful diplomat and party face; as well as a stealthy fighter who can assassinate as effectively as an assassin; or a blacksmith who forges magical wonders of metals and leather, armors, weapons, and wonders that adventurers would pay handsomely to possess.

Heck, the archetypes for rogues in PF are simplistic - they only change one, maybe two class abilities, and that's all that an archetype would need. Rogues are so easily customized in PF that you can turn them into anything you want without trying to turn your head inside out.

Most importantly, in all of the above cases it does not impair their combat capability.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:41:00 No.14746205 Report

Quoted By: >>14746300

>>14746159
>Most importantly, in all of the above cases it does not impair their combat capability.

Bullshit, unless youre making the opposing npcs low-powered/handicaped. As soon as you take that skill feat youre using it other than feat wich improves your combat ability.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:41:00 No.14746206 Report

Quoted By: >>14746379

>>14746159

Why even have classes if it's really as you describe? Seriously though, you admit that for you, in the end, combat is what matters. Again, to each his own. I'm glad there are alternatives to that crap.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:43:00 No.14746231 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746026
Nonsense. Keepers spend combat casting from scrolls. Not as good as the Mage, but serviceable. The Mage could also take Craft, and in fact should so he can crank out scrolls for the Keeper, but the Keeper's really the guy who's going to crank out the party's equipment and supplies for the next adventure. He's putting your wagons together, he's pounding out a customized sword for the Soldier, he's taking the Burglar's measurements and making a fitted set of chainmail.

The Courtier can turn enemies on each other in combat, and knows all the right people for investigations and and gathering supplies that the Keeper can't manufacture in a small amount of downtime. Like horses.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:44:00 No.14746240 Report

Quoted By: >>14746369

simple fact is, it doesn't matter what game you're playing

a min/maxer will be more effective (in combat or any other area) than a standard player

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:46:00 No.14746260 Report

Quoted By: >>14746458

>>14745790
Pathfinder version.
Bone Path Oracle with the Raise the Dead mystery, give him improved unarmed strike.

If you ant to get complex, you use the Brutal Pugilist version barbarian for a few levels, a few levels in oracle, then take Rage Prophet. By the time yo are done you will be able to punch people so heard they become a higher than normal level animated undead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:50:00 No.14746298 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746115
For the 9999999th time: skills, skill feats and stats. That's literally all you need to do the same things with a fighter as these guys do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:50:00 No.14746300 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746205
You don't need the 20 feats a fighter gets or the 11 feats+9 rogue talents all towards combat capabilty in PF. You can do perfectly well using only 7 feats to make a perfectly deadly, combat capable character of either class. The fact that you don't think so only shows how little you understand the systems. The class abilities they have make total combat feat whoring unnecessary and a waste of your time and effort, as a matter of fact. You'll end up with around half a dozen feats you never use if you try and go all combat all the time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:53:00 No.14746333 Report

Quoted By: >>14746348

>>14746159
>I can make a fighter who can be an incredibly powerful diplomat and party face; as well as a stealthy fighter who can assassinate as effectively as an assassin;
Origin Skills on a Soldier. You can get up to 4 Origin Skills at character creation. Hell, one of them you could even have at higher ranks. You just don't get the failure insurance abilities of a dedicated specialist, and there's nothing wrong with that.

>or a blacksmith who forges magical wonders of metals and leather, armors, weapons, and wonders that adventurers would pay handsomely to possess.
You just described the Keeper in my party. Except shit is not for sale, we need it. Hell, the spear he made that my Explorer uses is nigh-artifact level and he's not quite finished with it yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:55:00 No.14746348 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746333
Congratulations. You've both managed to prove that your system can do what the other guys system can do.

Can you shut the fuck up now?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:57:00 No.14746369 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746240
Problem is, in a shittyly designed game, the min-maxer will be better than other players AT EVERYTHING instead of just their chosen focus.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 08:58:00 No.14746379 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746206
Because other classes can do it better.

The fact that you can turn a fighter into a master diplomat is great. Diplomacy checks in PF are simplistic things, not meant to do much more than alter immediate problems and make them less pressin g. A bard who specializes in diplomacy will far outclass said fighter...but the fighter can still make an excellent diplomat. It doesn't detract from his ability as a fighter - hell, it takes 3 of his 21 feats to make him capable o having a minimum roll of +21 to his diplomacy checks by 10th level! Anyone can do it, as a matter of fact. A Bard's class abilities simply bypasses the need to spend skill points on diplomacy -he'll be pretty good at it no matter what.

All of the super special abilities that the Courtier has that affect the gifts, bribes, favors etc that the class relies on to make itself worthwhile are things the GM will have to create for any social campaign anyways. The fact that you don't consider them 'treasure' in PF means that you aren't relying on a class to generate treasure - you're relying on the GM and your own roleplaying abilities to generate it and reward you with it, rather than forcing the GM to create it whether he wants to or not so he can make your class USEFUL.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 09:05:00 No.14746458 Report

Quoted By:

>>14746260
>>14746006
Good for both of you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 09:53:00 No.14747042 Report

Quoted By:

>poison in pathfinder

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:03:00 No.14747176 Report

Quoted By: >>14747219 >>14747225

OP here. Well, after 7 hours I'm back and WTF? Why have you guys been arguing? You know these are just games, right? If you don't like one, don't play it. That being said I will be weighing the options between FC and PF. Though since I am already very familiar with 3.5, Pf would be much easier.

Just please.....stop fighting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:06:00 No.14747219 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747176
Oh yeah? Well you're gay.

Also, they started it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:07:00 No.14747225 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747176
You DO know this is /tg/ right?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:10:00 No.14747275 Report

Quoted By: >>14747319 >>14747359

pic related

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:14:00 No.14747319 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747275
>>Pic only true when a retard is running the game AND the fighter
FTFY

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:17:00 No.14747359 Report

Quoted By: >>14747405

>>14747275
This is only true for 3.5, not Pathfinder.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:21:00 No.14747405 Report

Quoted By: >>14747453 >>14747594

>>14747359
>2 skill points per level
>no social skills aside from Intimidate
>can't mechanically contribute to solving mysteries
>armor penalties still bad for most of the level progression
>no buffs

Nope, not seeing it

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:24:00 No.14747453 Report

Quoted By: >>14747524

>>14747405
Come back after you've played Pathfinder, newbie.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:27:00 No.14747484 Report

Quoted By: >>14747554

>>14746105

Please do, I'm not arsed if it's substandard at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:29:00 No.14747524 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747453
Can't muster up an actual response to any of those I take it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:31:00 No.14747554 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747484

(assuming you're still here, goddamn you Mount & Blade, consuming my time.)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:34:00 No.14747582 Report

Quoted By: >>14747615 >>14747633 >>14747640

>>Can't contribute mechanically to solving a mystery
Wait, what? What the fuck happened to actually looking at a scene and describing a more detailed form of search? Or, say, shaking down the Thieves' Guild and Beggars' guild for info? Or, oh, I don't know, trying to find someone with a motive?
Jesus, it's like you're not even trying to play and using the dice as some sort of fucking talisman that directs your every action...

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:34:00 No.14747594 Report

Quoted By: >>14747619 >>14747698 >>14747829

>>14747405
fighters can technically get 3 skill points a level if you take the favored class option of +1 Skill point, you would have 4 skill points if you are human

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:37:00 No.14747615 Report

Quoted By: >>14747846

>>14747582
Other classes have equal access to this.

You're basically saying "6+1 is more than 6+4 because 6+1 has a six in it and six is a lot."

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:37:00 No.14747619 Report

Quoted By: >>14747793 >>14747804

>>14747594
FantasyCraft salesman doesn't play Pathfinder. There's no point explaining anything.

SMAP

SMAP Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:38:00 No.14747633 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747582
None of those are "mechanically" contributing, they are doing so by RPing.

No one said fighters were barred from RP.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:39:00 No.14747640 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747582
>mechanically contribute
>mechanically

You can describe and "roleplay" all you like but in the end you're not making those skill checks or casting those spells, and the guys who can are describing and roleplaying just as much as you are because roleplaying isn't a class ability exclusive to the fighter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:42:00 No.14747698 Report

Quoted By: >>14747744 >>14747781

>>14747594
Well technically, but who really does it? More HP = more survival and meat for shielding. A meatshield foregoing the HP bonus for something that other classes get more of and do better is *technically* possible, but let's hear how many people actually do it...

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:45:00 No.14747744 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747698
You'll only be behind in terms of ability scores, as you can keep as many ranks as anyone else in your (fewer) skills, and it's easy to find a trait that makes whichever skill you're missing into a class skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:48:00 No.14747781 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747698
I do

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:49:00 No.14747793 Report

Quoted By: >>14747804

>>14747619
Paizo shill bashes system he is utterly unfamiliar with. No point in treating him like a thinking human.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:50:00 No.14747804 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747619
>>14747793

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:52:00 No.14747829 Report

Quoted By: >>14747880 >>14747927 >>14749966

>>14747594
Oh boy, 3 whole skill points.

4 if I choose to give up playing something that isn't a boring human, and with cool special abilities or attribute modifiers as a bonus.

They should have at least 4+Int before any of that extra shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:53:00 No.14747840 Report

Quoted By: >>14747869 >>14747897

Pathfinder has one thing going for it. There's a God of Bro-ness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:54:00 No.14747846 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747615
He's saying the numbers are not important in a game where rolling dice and looking at the numbers on them is something you will frequently do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:56:00 No.14747869 Report

Quoted By: >>14747909

>>14747840
Is it Broseidon, lord of the Brocean, scion of Brolympus?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:57:00 No.14747880 Report

Quoted By: >>14747901

>>14747829
humans get a + 2 bonus to any one stat

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:58:00 No.14747897 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747840
It's got plenty of stuff going for it, you just have to go into it with both eyes open to the flaws. Otherwise, you will end up getting angry with some of the retarded stuff and storm out to play something else.

This is why my group all got together and looked over the classes critically, to see what they had gotten right and wrong, then we started working from there. Didn't take much.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:59:00 No.14747901 Report

Quoted By: >>14748062

>>14747880
And two favored classes!

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 10:59:00 No.14747909 Report

Quoted By: >>14747934

>>14747869
nope he is talking about Cayden Cailean: The Drunken Hero.

God of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:00:00 No.14747927 Report

Quoted By: >>14749966

>>14747829
I do agree with you on this point. I don't think ANY class should have 2+int skill points. 4+ should be the min.

But traits and fighter feats solve a lot of problems. You can easily sacrifice a feat or two into skill bumps, and that is really what traits are meant for.

Hell Fighters can even be very good at UMD. Take a trait and they make it a class skill with an additional +1 bonus on top. Then spend one of their bajillion feats on skill focus, and they are on par with the rogue.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:01:00 No.14747934 Report

Quoted By: >>14748070

>>14747909
>Dare a drunk guy to become a god
>He does it
>Mon Visage Quan

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:10:00 No.14748062 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747901
No! That's half-elf!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:11:00 No.14748070 Report

Quoted By:

>>14747934
you forgot to mention that he went in drunk and came out drunk

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:54:00 No.14749966 Report

Quoted By: >>14753713

>>14747927
>>14747829
Skill Focus is a +3 bonus to one skill, and there are a number of feats that give a +2 bonus to two skills. When you have 10 ranks in the skill these feats focus on that bonus doubles to +6 or +4. Traits can give a +1 to one or two skills. There is a feat that turns 3 mental stat based skills into class skills (netting you the +3 class skill bonus the instant you spend a single skill point in it) and lets you learn two languages.

What this means is that for 7 feats, an amount of feats that will hamper his combat ability not at all, he can gain a +23 in three skills with no intelligence bonus at 10th level, and a +17 in another skill if he's human. Since skill points, like hit points, are retroactive, any time he gains 2 point of intelligence, he can add another skill to his list and gain an immediate +17 bonus,up to twice more.

Any character can do this. If you gave fighters, clerics, and wizards more skill points, there would be no use for about a fifth of the rogue abilities of about a fourth of the bard's abilities.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:55:00 No.14750529 Report

Quoted By:

Pathfinder would be a lot easier to get into if everyone just POSTED THE SRD IN EVERY PATHFINDER THREAD FOR HANDY REFERENCE.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:10:00 No.14753713 Report

Quoted By: >>14753721

>>14749966
>7 feats, an amount of feats that will hamper his combat ability not at all
>He only ever gains around 20 feats

Oh sure, 35% of all the potential combat ability the fighter ever gets invested in non-combat shit won't impact it at all. On the moon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:11:00 No.14753721 Report

Quoted By: >>14753768

>>14753713
They are probably just gonna waste most of those on stuff that isn't Power Attack. Why not use a few to grab utilities?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:16:00 No.14753768 Report

Quoted By: >>14753792

>>14753721
Because crippling the one thing your class is good at to be mediocre at something that other classes can already do well without spending their combat resources on it is a pretty dumb thing.

Also power attack sucks in Pathfinder

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:20:00 No.14753792 Report

Quoted By: >>14753830 >>14753854

>>14753768
ok since you have yet to back up your statement on why Power Attack sucks i am going to call you a troll

Espagnoll !/5aJFFL8RI

Espagnoll !/5aJFFL8RI Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:21:00 No.14753804 Report

Quoted By:

>>14743069
That illustration.
Is pure Metal Hurlant.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:24:00 No.14753830 Report

Quoted By: >>14753896

>>14753792
Power attack is more efficient in Pathfinder. However, some people complain that, since one cannot power attack for as much damage, that it sucks. See the chart.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:26:00 No.14753854 Report

Quoted By: >>14753882 >>14753886 >>14753905

>>14753792
>didn't refute the actual point

Power attack sucks in Pathfinder because it's both limited in how much you can spend on it, AND it limits that spending by level, AND you don't get to control how much you reduce your attack bonus. The penalty to hit has a far bigger impact at high levels than low levels, all for a damage bonus that's frankly not worth it 90% of the time. A feat that manages to start out bad and actually gets somewhat worse over time is horrible. (Mathematically, you do LESS damage on average with power attack thanks to the hit penalty UNLESS you meet very specific conditions.)

Now please tell me how spending 7 of your total of around 20 feats is such a minor investment again. Or maybe you're just trolling.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:30:00 No.14753882 Report

Quoted By:

>>14753854
>Now please tell me how spending 7 of your total of around 20 feats is such a minor investment again. Or maybe you're just trolling.
>spending 33% of a limited resource on something you're never ever going to be good at anyways
He might just be naive or inexperienced.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:30:00 No.14753886 Report

Quoted By: >>14753890

>>14753854
let me correct you on something, fighters get 21 feats, human fighters get 22

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:31:00 No.14753890 Report

Quoted By:

>>14753886
Doesn't make spending 7 feats on something other than combat a good idea.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:32:00 No.14753896 Report

Quoted By: >>14753921 >>14753962

>>14753830
So these graphs basically mean that 3.5 PA does more damage but PF's PA is more efficient/accurate?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:33:00 No.14753905 Report

Quoted By: >>14753942

>>14753854
let me guess you don't specialize your fighters and take feats for every weapon you think you will carry?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:35:00 No.14753921 Report

Quoted By:

>>14753896
Yes, that is precisely what it means.

Of course, if you use some feats from 3.5 (hey, PF IS supposed to be backwards compatible) you can ramp the efficiency up even further to an area where it does about as much damage as normal 3.5 PA.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:36:00 No.14753942 Report

Quoted By: >>14753953

>>14753905
let me guess: you don't specialize your fighters either, because you don't invest feats into combat maneuvers?

Espagnoll !/5aJFFL8RI

Espagnoll !/5aJFFL8RI Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:37:00 No.14753945 Report

Quoted By: >>14753958

I know I shouldn't ask this kind of things but some noble anon would like to share a pdf of PT: APG.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:38:00 No.14753953 Report

Quoted By: >>14753972

>>14753942
because i very rarely use them so why take the feats to make them better

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:39:00 No.14753958 Report

Quoted By:

>>14753945
Should be on /rs/
Failing that, a Pirate Bay search should yield results.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:39:00 No.14753962 Report

Quoted By: >>14754035

>>14753896
It's only more efficient if you're using a two-handed weapon.

Thing is, a bonus to hit translates to higher damage over time. A person who hits more deals more damage. If a fighter with around 16 strength gets +1 to hit, on average his DPR goes up by just over 2 or so points (assuming a d8 damage one handed weapon and attacks against an AC which he'll hit around 60% of the time). If he uses power attack, it goes up by slightly less than 0.3 because of the -1 to hit for +2 damage. There are instances where PA is better, but they're vanishingly rare.

But wait, it gets even worse! Because Pathfinder gives fighters static damage bonuses to weapons (weapon mastery benefits), hitting more often is much more efficient than in 3.5, so each +1 to hit starts ramping up the DPR over time. Power attack at -2 is something like +2 or +3 DPR. Using two weapons at the same penalty but making more attacks (using only the first TWF feat) is many times more efficient than that over any given combat.

Generally, the only situation where PA is more efficient is when A) fighting enemies of a CR slightly below yours, B) when you're wielding a two-handed weapon and C) you started with 20 strength at chargen. Almost anywhere else, a mobile variant two-weapon fighter will carve shit up so much better it's not even funny and will get more mileage out of crit feats to boot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:40:00 No.14753972 Report

Quoted By: >>14754123

>>14753953
Just the fact that you have that mentality shows that you don't have the creativity or the tactical mindset to use them properly anyways.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 00:47:00 No.14754035 Report

Quoted By:

>>14753962
>Thing is, a bonus to hit translates to higher damage over time. A person who hits more deals more damage. If a fighter with around 16 strength gets +1 to hit, on average his DPR goes up by just over 2 or so points
>Gah correction, around 1.2 points

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:03:00 No.14754123 Report

Quoted By: >>14754152

>>14753972
wow you are full of shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:07:00 No.14754152 Report

Quoted By: >>14754180

>>14754123
>herp derp I don't use some feats so no one should

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:11:00 No.14754180 Report

Quoted By: >>14754258

>>14754152
i never said that or ever implied it, all i ever said was that i rarely if ever use the maneuvers so why should i take the feats to improve them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:22:00 No.14754258 Report

Quoted By: >>14754288

>>14754180
And based on your play, you then recommend that no one else should take them and instead focus on crappy skill feats that no one of any other class takes unless they can't help it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:26:00 No.14754288 Report

Quoted By: >>14754337 >>14754520

>>14754258
who says no other class takes those skill feats?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:36:00 No.14754337 Report

Quoted By: >>14754383

>>14754288
When is taking a skill feat is the best option available to a wizard or cleric or monk or anyone else. Answer this without using the word "roleplaying".

(hint; the answer is never, unless it's for a really good prestige class.)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:43:00 No.14754383 Report

Quoted By: >>14754462

>>14754337
to be good a a skill my class doesn't get or to be damn good with a skill that i get

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 01:54:00 No.14754462 Report

Quoted By: >>14754519

>>14754383
Congratulations, you got a +3 bonus to one skill. Meanwhile, your buddy took Leadership and just has his cohort do Aid Another when it's remotely relevant for a +2. And if you took it for a skill where Aid Another doesn't apply, congratulations, you're good at swimming or climbing or some shit that's so specific that it almost never actually comes up.

You're going to meet the DCs for the vast majority of skill checks with just skill ranks + ability bonuses, a skill feat is just gilding the lily. Taking it for something you're bad at means that you spent effort on being vaguely mediocre, and "I'm slightly more mediocre now!" is not what you want to get for getting a new level.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 02:02:00 No.14754519 Report

Quoted By: >>14754540

>>14754462
did your buddy check with your dm to make sure he could take that feat?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 02:02:00 No.14754520 Report

Quoted By: >>14755514

>>14754288
Wasting a spell slot to get 15% better at something is stupid beyond words. If you have enough points in that skill, the feat won't matter. If you don't have enough points in that skill, the feat won't matter.

The only situation I'd ever advise anyone to gimp themselves by taking skill feats is a tank Fighter buffing his Swim checks, because he can't afford to waste his skill points on something mostly useless, and still can't just ignore it because it leaves a possibility of ignobly dying in yet another way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 02:05:00 No.14754540 Report

Quoted By:

>>14754519
That restriction isn't in Pathfinder and some types of clerics get it for free, so yaaaay Pathfinder I guess.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 03:58:00 No.14755514 Report

Quoted By: >>14755551

>>14754520

Ugh - minmaxing hurr durr.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 30 Apr 2011 04:03:00 No.14755551 Report

Quoted By:

>>14755514
The people who argue that these systems are bad are usually the same who argue that you cannot play these games correctly without minmaxing.

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