/tg/ - Traditional Games » Thread #14748429

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:38:00 No.14748429 View View Reply Original Report

Does MTG have as many cheaters as YGO during tournaments?

>Went to local tournament with my Watt deck
>Played a Chaos Plants deck
>Saw the guy slowly bending the edge of my card when he was checking my graveyard
>Realized he was marking it for game 2
>Call official, he gets DQed.

Along with this was about two more incidents of cheating, but I wasn't playing those matches. This is just for a LOCAL tournament.

Fox + Bat !!6qzAnsHgml3

Fox + Bat !!6qzAnsHgml3 Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:39:00 No.14748443 Report

Quoted By:

It's kind silly to split up one group of faggots from another group.

You just need to know that each group has it's faggots.

Sydhar

Sydhar Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:42:00 No.14748471 Report

Quoted By: >>14748701

I do wonder how the playerbases compare, though. Most of the cheating I know of at M:TG tournaments is more of the bookkeeping sort; deliberate misrepresentation of rules, pointedly missing triggers or not keeping up with game states. You know, trying to sidestep the mechanics.

Never heard of anything quite like that, though. Well, there WAS that one pro player who got caught with a Cadaverous Bloom in his lap.

...It was a centerpiece card for his deck but my god when you put it like that it sounds like some horrible venereal disease.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:44:00 No.14748486 Report

Quoted By:

I've never heard of something like that in a Magic tournament. Mana weaving is common, though, and pic related made it all the way to the highest levels of tournament Magic through sleight of hand and stacking his deck. That was several years ago, though, and I haven't heard of anything happening like that lately.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:45:00 No.14748504 Report

Quoted By:

I find that the M:tG community has less cheaters per capita than YGO.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:51:00 No.14748610 Report

Quoted By:

Bump for curiosity.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:54:00 No.14748651 Report

Quoted By: >>14748663 >>14748701

It's common to cheat in casual Magic drafts at game stores by sneaking powerful commons and uncommons into your deck from outside the draft pool. Or at least we've caught kids around here doing it a lot.

Sydhar

Sydhar Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:55:00 No.14748663 Report

Quoted By: >>14748691

>>14748651

Yeah, but I'm not sure that's the sort of tournament to which the OP is referring.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:57:00 No.14748691 Report

Quoted By: >>14748874

>>14748663
Does YGO have booster drafts? You'd think it would be pretty easy because there are no colors and most cards can fit in any deck. But maybe that takes all the fun out of it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:58:00 No.14748699 Report

Quoted By:

>plays yugioh
>laughinggirls.jpeg

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 11:58:00 No.14748701 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748651

You know, I think it's mostly a local tournament thing for both games. Barring weird exceptions like>>14748471, I find larger MTG tournaments are pretty good as far as fair play goes. I mean, ultimately you're playing a bunch of no-fun-allowed micromanaged decks designed to do exactly one thing and win with it, so it's not FUN play, but it's still FAIR play.

Local tournaments... well, the FLGS owner watches everyone whose face he doesn't know and there's usually a couple guys fucking around like that.

Lark

Lark Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:03:00 No.14748758 Report

Quoted By:

There's tons of cheating in Magic and always has been.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:04:00 No.14748773 Report

Quoted By: >>14748798 >>14748829 >>14748881

As a competitive player of both games, there is less cheating and less theft in MTG than YGO.

I hate to sound racist, but there's also a lot less blacks/hispanics in MTG tournies. Correlation? Decide for yourself.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:06:00 No.14748798 Report

Quoted By: >>14748949 >>14749587

>>14748773
>>I hate to sound racist, but
GUESS WHAT, YOU JUST DONE FUCKED UP ON THAT, THEN.
>>a lot less blacks/hispanics in MTG tournies.
Yeah, you sound pretty racist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:08:00 No.14748816 Report

Quoted By: >>14748864

OP, never let anyone check your GY. never. its in the rulebook that you have the right to deny them that, and it should be the responsibility of you and your opponent to keep track of whats sent where.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:09:00 No.14748829 Report

Quoted By: >>14748874

>>14748773
Is that an animu Lilianna? I know they redid the art for the Japanese Jace vs. Chandra to make them more animu - have they done more shit like that lately, or is that just fanart?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:12:00 No.14748864 Report

Quoted By: >>14748876 >>14748902

>>14748816

Is this really in the YGO rules? In Magic, you don't even have to ask to see it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:13:00 No.14748874 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748691

the packs aren't designed for it.

>>14748829

animu code guass lillina and chandra.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:14:00 No.14748876 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748864
yes its in the rule book. they have to specifically ask to see your graveyard, and you have to let them in order for them to see it. you can deny them and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Sydhar

Sydhar Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:14:00 No.14748881 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748773

You're looking at a correlation with income levels on both counts. If anything the causality can be found there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:15:00 No.14748902 Report

Quoted By: >>14748921

>>14748864

well, I think asking to look at an opponents stuff is pretty much the procedure for playing, but they can't turn down giving your public information.

in m:tg.

Yu-Gi-Oh has really shitty rules docs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:17:00 No.14748920 Report

Quoted By:

The local magic scene for me is very friendly and honest people, which is why I like it so much more.
At Yugioh tourneys at my LGS you had to keep everything on you at all times and watch every game carefully for cheaters.
However at Magic, everyone leaves everything anywhere, everyone knows eachother and would never steal from anyone, and are almost always honest.
I still keep everything on me at all times because of habit and that you never know what to expect, but still; M'tG players are leagues better than YGO players.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:17:00 No.14748921 Report

Quoted By: >>14749016

>>14748902
indeed it does, but it can be very useful if you have a good memory. the people i play with get annoyed because i never let anyone look at my GY, and i can remember almost every card sent to either players graves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:20:00 No.14748949 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748798
>statistics imply racism

wow you are an idiot statistics dont have prejudices bro

Laughing Angel

Laughing Angel Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:25:00 No.14749006 Report

Quoted By: >>14749039 >>14749721

I personally find that due to Yugioh's simpler rule mechanics and poor set design structure (average of 5 decks considered competitive at a given time, any card worth jack is made secret rare and is worth $20+, endless power creep) it tends to attract players who are less mature. The harder the game the less likely asshats will bother playing it.

I mean, I play Yugioh more than magic, and I notice a major difference in average maturity. Half the playerbase still thinks you can normal summon in face-up defense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:26:00 No.14749011 Report

Quoted By: >>14749519 >>14749800

I get more pissed at the "cheating" in MtG, because its not as blatant and more or less just amounts to asshole mindgames.

Shit like declaring an attack, opponent knows i have attacking triggers and starts asking questions about something else, then says i didn't declare triggers when attacking after I answer his question.

"Can I read that card?" Its Raging Ravine, its been out for two years now and you read it last game, you slow playing fuck.

It got to the point that after going to some small tourney's I started getting pissed at players and I wasn't even sure why. The pro's are civil, the wannabe's just set everyone on fucking edge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:26:00 No.14749016 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748921

looking at the sole official rulebook on online gives this

?Public knowledge
The number of cards in a player’s hand and Decks, the cards in
their Graveyards, and each player’s current Life Points are all
public knowledge and both players can verify these things at any
time. If asked, you must answer these things to your opponent
truthfully. You are allowed to pick up and verify the cards in your
opponent’s Graveyard but you must ask their permission first.
Also, you may not change the order of the cards when verifying
their Graveyard

Clearly, you must tell your opponent the contents of your GY when asked, and the asking to see is a matter of not touching your opponents things without preparing them for the contact.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:28:00 No.14749039 Report

Quoted By:

>>14749006

doesn't help that it has an anime that doesn't follow the game rules.

.... ever.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 12:35:00 No.14749106 Report

Quoted By:

I know of few cheaty people. Most of them do not just cheat in magic but also in other games.

One guy I knew had all of his decks marked Admittedly he never enter a tournament because he would get pulled in the first five minute and he could not function on non-cheaty play. Also he has the largest collection of loaded dies.

Another guy uses cheaty shuffles and aces up the sleeve. Admittedly he one of the few people I have known to get pulled for cheating in a tournament due to incorrect amount of cards in deck due to his miscount.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:07:00 No.14749441 Report

Quoted By: >>14749606

>>14748429
>YGO has cheaters
The real question is, do they have money?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:13:00 No.14749519 Report

Quoted By: >>14749800 >>14750320

>>14749011
I hate reminding people about my Goblin Guide triggers. I fucking expect them to KNOW and show me the fucking card that's revealed. I'll say "declare attackers" they say "yes" and I'll swing. I have to remind them over and fucking over.

It literally took MONTHS to teach people that you have to fucking give a guy a chance to Doom Blade that fucking Eldrazi before it swings and the Annihilator is added to the stack. I would almost welcome cheaters because at least they have the grace to learn the fucking rules.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:20:00 No.14749587 Report

Quoted By: >>14749622

>>14748798
Pointing out facts as percieved is not racism.

Asking if there is a correlation is kind of racially charged.

Answering the question of correlation would have been racist.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:21:00 No.14749606 Report

Quoted By:

>>14749441
Screw the money, I have green hair!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:23:00 No.14749622 Report

Quoted By: >>14749643

>>14749587
Hell, I'm a Mexican and I'll say it:

Of course most of the Mexican gamers are stealing. We don't have the money to obtain games legally in the first place.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:24:00 No.14749643 Report

Quoted By: >>14749779

>>14749622
I work at a gamestore, have been for about 4 years. Every thief I've caught has been Mexican, Black or under the age of 16. Most of them Mexicans under the age of 16.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:32:00 No.14749721 Report

Quoted By:

>>14749006
>(average of 5 decks considered competitive at a given time, any card worth jack is made secret rare and is worth $20+, endless power creep)
Hmmmmm...
>(average of 5 decks considered competitive at a given time, any card worth jack is made mythic rare and is worth $30+, endless power creep)
Whoops, looks like it applies to MTG, too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:37:00 No.14749779 Report

Quoted By:

>>14749643
To bring up a related story. When my warhammer days were winding down, a Mexican kid tried to swap one of my army cases with an empty one (that belonged to the store, at that.) Only reason he didn't make it out of the store with it was because the store owner remembered that he'd come in with nothing and prevented him from leaving.

ImperiusRex

ImperiusRex Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:39:00 No.14749800 Report

Quoted By: >>14749979

>>14749011
>>14749519

Ewww, I'm playing a Casual without an encyclopedia knowledge of the game!

Granted some players are dorks, while others are... simply new or not pro.

Granted, my game of choice, L5R has its own share of weirdness. "Forgotten" Reactions and force bumps, stalling tactics, and the dreaded Palmer Effect.

"Hmm... interesting... this is going to be a tough battle. What to do.."
"Dude, you have two units to my six, and two cards in your hand. You pretty much know your options.."

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:49:00 No.14749908 Report

Quoted By:

We were actually talking about this the other day. My friend has a cube in MTG that is worth thousands...foil Jace TMS for christsakkes. Anyway, we were talking about how it hasn't been stolen from. Of course, some of our players 'graduated' from YGO and have tales of horrors from tourneys where people would just pull pages out of vendors' binders and flashing pieces tucked in their waistband.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 13:55:00 No.14749979 Report

Quoted By: >>14750150

>>14749800
What is this Palmer Effect?

ImperiusRex

ImperiusRex Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:14:00 No.14750150 Report

Quoted By: >>14750356 >>14750434

>>14749979
Palmer Rule as I understand is a means to preventing time delaying shenanigans in the elimination rounds in a L5R tournament.

Usually these rounds have a 90 minute time limit to play a 2 out of 3 games. If time is called during game 2, the winner of the 1st game is declared winner of the match.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:28:00 No.14750320 Report

Quoted By:

rolled 7, 14, 9, 10 = 40>>14749519

sounds like a bunch of newbs not knowing, theres not knowing the rules at first and then learning the rules and forgetting

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:31:00 No.14750356 Report

Quoted By: >>14750457

>>14750150
Ah. I've heard the Warmahordes talk about something similar in their games. Deathclocks, I think they're called.

Though I think they have rules saying that intentionally stalling is a DQ.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:35:00 No.14750392 Report

Quoted By:

Not related to cards, but there's a player in my group who likes to roll their dice in hard to see places. They roll 15 and above on average, but this wouldn't bother me if not for a small incident a few games back.
They were rolling to beat another players persuasion check, and had to crit to do it. Well, they crit, and I called them out on it. The DM says they need to roll in the open, where their rolls can be seen (the DM and other players were getting a bit suspicious as well). If they had actually rolled a 20, I know they would have made a fuss about re-rolling. But, they just went along with it. I don't want to be a "That Guy," but I don't like cheating.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:41:00 No.14750434 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750150

well, duh.

the second game was a draw.

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:44:00 No.14750457 Report

Quoted By: >>14750521

>>14750356
Same in Magic. If your opponent is playing slowly, they can be asked to speed it up; If they continue, they can get Warnings for it, which can be escalated to Game Loss, Match Loss, and DQ if they keep it up.

If they're found to be playing slowly to manipulate the clock on PURPOSE [draw, look at hand, shuffle hand, look at board, shuffle hand, look at board, shuffle hand, play an Island and pass turn, taking a minute or more when there's nothing on board TO be surveying], that's Cheating - Stalling, which is an instant DQ. A history of it can get you suspended or even banned from the DCI.

There's a few bad eggs, like Saitou losing his Hall of Fame eligibility because of repeated Slow Play infractions, or Mike Long's famous 'Bloom in Lap' bullshit, but the vast majority of Magic players are not cheaters.

Rules lawyers to an extent, but once you pass the FNM 'wannabe pro' circuit, it's less asshole-rules lawyering like "HAHA YOU FORGOT YOUR TRIGGER BECAUSE I DISTRACTED YOU" and more real rules-lawyering, as in "strictly holding you to the rules because we are playing for several thousand fucking dollars"

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:47:00 No.14750475 Report

Quoted By: >>14750504

Is it still true in YGO that if you offer someone a handshake at the beginning of the duel and they refuse, they can be DQ'd for poor sportsmanship?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:49:00 No.14750499 Report

Quoted By:

>>14748429
>bending the edges of cards

damn man, I would have lost it on that asshole.

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:50:00 No.14750504 Report

Quoted By: >>14750533

>>14750475
Not that I know of. The old thing was to use Yu-Jo Friendship and Unity to offer a handshake that they HAD to accept. A friend of mine wanted to find if there were any 'skin-borne' diseases to transfer that way, but I think the card is banned in tournaments anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:54:00 No.14750521 Report

Quoted By: >>14750548 >>14750557

>>14750457
I will say this: DCI does do a good job of policing Magic over all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:56:00 No.14750533 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750504

Yeah, it is.

As is tribe infecting virus, because then games might take longer than one turn if he was playable.

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:57:00 No.14750548 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750521
Agreed. Some people act like the massive rules, tournament rules, and IPG of Magic are some kind of stupid bullshit, claiming 'rules make the game no fun', just because they've been playing it wrong. I love the rules; they fascinate me. That's why I became a Judge. And why I have yet to find a better game than Magic. I love the game, and the rules are just so... perfect, to me. There's very little that doesn't flow, and what doesn't flow is the most elegant possible solution they could have come up with, in my opinion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 14:58:00 No.14750557 Report

Quoted By: >>14750586

>>14750521

pretty much.

side comment:

Apperently Guilleman as Fuck acciedently leaked the NPH Godbook.

Which is kinda odd, because I think that the godbook should not be available to individual players in the DCI pool till the whole set is spoiled.

I mean, WotC sanctioned early spoilers for random PT players just doesn't seam kosher.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:02:00 No.14750583 Report

Quoted By:

>Go to Official Yugi-oh Tournament when I'm 12
>Bring my carefully constructed deck
>Pay 20$ entrance fee
>First match, fuck yeah!
>Kid draws that one..blue..elf lady thing who's name I forget
>OK, I USE MY ABILITY TO SUMMON BLUE EYES WHITE DRAGON
>Slaps three blue eyes white dragons on the table
>"What? She doesn't have that ability, look on the card, there's nothing there."
>YEAH HUH, SHE DOES IT IN THE CARTOON, THAT MEANS SHE CAN
>Call over judge
>Explain
>"Uh..I dunno..hey son, are you lying?
>NO DAD
>Uh..well I dunno
>He leaves

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:02:00 No.14750586 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750557
Eh, it's not like it does anything for them except allow them a bit more practice for prereleases, I guess? Even then, they'd have to make a shitfuckload of proxies to do anything, since they can't exactly test it on MWS without leaking...

I wish they WOULD release god-books to everyone. Having it all as a pdf is handy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:05:00 No.14750609 Report

Quoted By: >>14750644

Just throwing in my two cents, haven't really had people intentionally cheat, but I don't play competitively that often. I have had a guy try to mulligan turn four though, we were playing multiplayer and everyone just looked at him till I said "uh, not how it works, sorry man." to which he responded "oh, you're that type of players," and put back his library. We laugh about it now, but every now and again I have to correct people on the rules, mostly stacking triggers wrong and general "sloppy play" because we're playing casually (drawing before untap/upkeep, not usually a big deal unless you have something like breeding pit out, is the typical thing.)

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:08:00 No.14750644 Report

Quoted By: >>14750703

>>14750609
>Drawing before untap/upkeep
Actually, there's something in the rules to cover this. It's called "Out of Order Sequencing", and it's totally legal as long as the out-of-order sequence leads to the same result the legal one would. It's just easier that way, than backtracking a bunch of shit.

But, yeah. I tend to remind people about sloppy play and missed stuff without being a dick, but if anyone ever acts like playing by the rules makes me a dick, I just scoop up my board and say "Thanks for the game.". I have better shit to do than deal with people who think the rules limit their fun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:10:00 No.14750666 Report

Quoted By: >>14750707

I've only played local YGO Tournaments, and I never had any issues with epic rules-douchebaggery or theft. Hell, a player left their entire holofoil-binder and another player turned it in to the owner of the LGS (who called the guy, who drove back for it).

One player had an Exodia deck, back during Spell Ruler - Pharoah's Servant days, and barely anyone even bothered to touch the cards.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:15:00 No.14750703 Report

Quoted By: >>14750726

>>14750644

Right, I don't correct people when it doesn't matter, but more than once someone has had an upkeep-triggered ability that depends on their draw and they draw first. I just usually try to set a good example by going through the motions, especially when my start of turn is complex, getting it ingrained in peoples mind that untap is before upkeep, etc. That guy kinda has strange opinions about magic, he feels that "protection from X" (because you can't block them) broke magic but has no qualms about running landwalk. (Neither have broken magic, for the record.)

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:15:00 No.14750707 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750666
Theft is a non-issue here. One guy lost his binder, and we held onto it for a year and a half before he claimed it. He just didn't come back for like, ever. He mentioned that he stopped coming because he lost his rare binder, and when he described it, I said "Dude, come by this weekend, Chad has it. We've been holding it for like, a year now", without a card missing. People leave decks and binders and bags and spare cards a lot, and they're always returned perfectly fine.

The only thing that's ever gone missing is my friend's box which contained a 500 dollar EDH deck, 4 Baneslayers/DoJ when they were worth money, a Valakut deck [before Prime-Time, thank god], and a bunch of other cards. But, he was visiting on a day when not many of us were there, and he was the last to leave. He literally just left it on the table.

Considering the fact that none of his cards ended up being suspiciously present in anyone's decks or binders in the following weeks, we figure it was someone not from the group. Either way, it's his own dumbass fault.

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0

galvanicAutogenitor !!lh2+0hXHAN0 Fri 29 Apr 2011 15:17:00 No.14750726 Report

Quoted By:

>>14750703
>Protection
>Broke Magic
>Present since fucking Alpha
He's one of those people who feels that "any mechanic I'm unfamiliar with/don't like/has beaten me before is broken!" isn't he?

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