Hey /tg/, long-time /k/ommando here, and one of your brethren was on /k/ about a month back asking for some help making a firearms loot generator table that held some practical water but still allowed for the generation of some ridiculous (but fun) weapons. I don't seem to recall the ruleset they were using, but if this is you (or you are interested in this subject) i've been brainstorming a bit and come up with some ideas that could make for good gameplay.
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Bump for already on page 3
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Alright, another bump and i'll give it a rest.
Milkshakes
Anonymous
Very informative thread, this elegan/tg/entleman really appreciates it.
>>18836064 Well I didn't want to spend time typing out a whole bunch of explanation if there is no interest.
Anyone interested?
Anonymous
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>>18838514 Proceed, so that we may determine what improvements may be needed.
Anonymous
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ó o povo do br ae....
>>18836064 Alright, so the gist of the re/k/uest was a fa/tg/uy was looking for some suggestions for his weapon generation table. He had done up a complicated flow chart and everything having to do with action types and other such intricacies.
REALLY what you need with such systems is the ability to simplify without oversimplifying, which can be hard for ballistics because there are so many variables. Instead, I think it is best to set up your system this way:
Games like to make weapons decide the damage, but firearms don't work that way. The cartridge has significantly more influence on the damage. Inside the different cartridges of the same chambering (see: same gun can fire them) there are a variety of different bullet types (full-metal jacket, jacketed hollowpoint, jacketed soft point, high-grain match, semi-wadcutter, ect).
So for your table first you will want to roll for caliber. A good bet for which calibers to include is to look at the most common modern (and some not so modern!) rounds, specifically NATO and WARSAW spec rounds.
Amongst those suggested:
7.62X51 7.62X54R 9MM .45 ACP 7.62X39 5.56X45 .357 MAG .45 LG 12 Gauge 20 Gauge
The Fallout NV ammo types list is actually pretty darn good for this purpose!
Next you want to look into weapon type. Firearms are generally rifles, pistols, or shotguns. Each of these has its own characteristics that effect your ballistic performance. The easiest to "rule" are barrel length and action type (the type of action that loads the weapon).
Longer barrel lengths will generally increase muzzle velocity (power), accuracy over distance, but also increase encumbrance and recoil (recoil only in some instances).
So your next roll on the table is rifle, pistol, or shotgun.
Now you need to look at action type. Rifles, pistols, and shotguns generally use one of the following types:
>continued
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>>18838698 Rifle: Bolt-Action, Lever-action, or Semi-auto (gas piston or impingement usually, but that is in the weeds). Rifles are also sometimes pump action.
Bolt action rifles are generally known for their precision, but usually have internal magazines with low capacities, and have a low re-fire rate.
Lever actions maintain much of bolt-action power and precision, but are often heavier (more weight). They also have a higher re-fire rate and usually magazines about 50% larger than bolt actions.
Semi-autos (Assault Rifles if an intermediate cartridge, Battle rifles if "full-power") have high re-fire rates, detachable magazines of wildly varying capacities, and generally less precision than bolt and lever actions, although there are many exceptions.
Pistols: Usually semi-auto or revolver (double and single action being a revolver that does not require cocking the hammer and one that does, respectively). They can also be bolt-action.
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Shotguns usually come in pump-action, semi-auto, lever-action, or break-barrel (single-shot only).
Anonymous
>>18838744 >bolt-action pistols >pump-action rifles Anonymous
>>18835824 So that's what That Gun looks like...
So to recap, you roll chambering, then weapon type, then action type.
This has the funny effect of sometimes getting you total aberrations, such as shotguns that fire rifle rounds (that is just a rifle, not a shotgun! shotguns ALWAYS fire a gauge chambering). On top of that though, you could roll
>>18835824 That Gun: a 5.56 Pistol (Revolver) by rolling chamber, weapon type, action. On top of this you would need to roll barrel length. This would be the difference between "That Gun" or the Joker's anti-aircraft pistol (you remember the first Batman movie, right?)
Anonymous
Kommando, might I ask your call on
>>18835824 ?It looks like it has three separate cylinders (shape, not revolver part,) on it, all aligned the same way, one of which (I'd guess the longest,) presumably has to be the barrel. Which is, and what're the rest?
Anonymous
>>18838766 >implying pump-action rifles don't exist yeah they are real, just like there are break-action pistols.
dunno about bolt-action pistols though
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>>18838775 >>18838793 One step ahead of you guys, please see:
>>18838788
>>18838799 The Obrez is one example of a bolt-action "pistol". The NATO clandestine forces also fielded a silenced bolt-action pistol during WW2 for covert operations.
Anonymous
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>>18838808 well that answers my question
Anonymous
>>18838808 >NATO clandestine forces >in WW2 >Calling the Welrod a pistol >not a silencer that shoots bullets >NATO >WWII
ONE MORE THING!
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>>18838829 That's what that thing was called!
Lemme just get my pants off my head here...
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>>18838829 Also, yes, NATO was AFTER WW2. The triple-entente, then.
>you people Anonymous
Anonymous
>>18838788 Wouldn't it be better to roll
>weapon type >chambering (modified for weapon type) Sure, you'd need a chambering table for each weapon type, but you'd be able to avoid monstrosities like a 9MM shotgun or a 7.62X54R pistol.
Anonymous
>>18838873 why bother? US army already has one
Anonymous
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>>18838808 Obrez is not a pistol, dumbass, it is sawn-off rifle. And in russian, "Obrez" is just a word for any sawn-off weapon. Also, yes
>NATO >WWII Anonymous
>>18838836 A .38 can kill you just as well as a .226 or .45, right? What actually determines bullet damage to a human body? Is it more a case of "the bullet will hurt like hell no matter where it hurts but will only kill you if it hits a vital artery or organ?"
Pic is from GURPS.
Anonymous
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>>18838877 I always thought part of the fun was the chambering first. That is, after all, how "That Gun" was born.
Also, the Obrez can be considered under American law as either a pistol or a rifle, depending on whether or not it entered the country before or after being cut down. For anyone who missed it the Obrez is a 7.62X54r Pistol/Short-Barreled Rifle.
>the more you know Anonymous
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>>18838897 oh man that thing was such a disaster
Anonymous
>>18838877 >9mm boltaction shotgun. This is why it should be as it is.
Anonymous
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>>18838885 That would be a heavy bolter, if anything.
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>>18838891 Most any bullet is capable of killing, but different cartridges and loadings will do damage to varying degrees and also in different ways! See the "armor" That Gun example above.
If you want to have a game that mixes realistic and fun, you most likely want to err on the side of durability and assume that your armored supermen characters aren't going to succumb to one .38 special to the arm, but a .50 BMG to the arm would almost certainly do the trick.
Anonymous
>>18838897 >>18838885 Those aren't bolters.
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>>18838922 I have already stipulated that shotguns can only be chambered in Gauges here:
>>18838788 A 9mm bolt action would be either a rifle or pistol depending on the rolled barrel length. I didn't mention it explicitly because I forgot about it, but you would ACTUALLY want to roll:
>chambering >barrel length >weapon type >action type Anonymous
Uh guys, "That Gun" is the .223 Pistol from FO1&2, which is itself just Deckard's gun from Blade Runner.
Anonymous
Anonymous
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>>18838891 I can't think of a single RPG where you cannot change a gun's damage by loading a different type of round. Axes do 1d12 but guns can always be changed around.
Anonymous
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Well now, I'm pleasantly surprised by this. I didn't expect anyone to remember the threads I made back then.
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>>18838960 This is pretty close to truth.
Not really relevant, though.
Sgt. Varn !q8XtSW4.HY
Anonymous
>>18838947 it's a rapid fire grenade launcher
bolters are just hand-held rapid-fire grenade launchers how do i know this? the only time bolter mechanics ever appeared in an official sorce (rule books and codices I don't count the novels) was in the 3rd edition rule book, there it said in so many words it's a 40mm grenade launcher with an automatic fire setting.
you might just be a little mad because you don't think its as cool if it isn't science fiction.
it's a bolter
Anonymous
>>18839012 A bolter fires self-propelled projectiles that enter their target and then explode.
Since when are grenades self-propelled?
Anonymous
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Have a bolter. Or maybe a shoota.
Anonymous
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>>18839023 Let's not get off topic.
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Now guys, I haven't gone into light, medium, and heavy machineguns, grenade launchers, or SMGs here because I was intending to make some suggestions as simply as possible, but if you look at your current table and just add .50 BMG, 12.7MM, 40MM, 25MM, ect, to your chamberings table, and belt-fed or select-fire to your actions type, you can also roll up Mk19s, M240Bs, M249 SAWS, MP5s, or any other kind of thing.
Anonymous
>>18839023 so your saying that you would prefer the bolter to be more akin to the gyrojet prototypes (which proved to be a failure in the testing phase) to a weapon currently in use by the US Army and highly effective at it's role?
if that is your wish
Anonymous
>>18839056 > highly effective at it's role? >at it's role >it's >highly effective at it is role I don't know what you're arguing about, but you look stupid. You think a bolter is something that it is not, just so you can say we have them in real life or something. Quit being dumb.
Anonymous
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>>18839056 Not him, but my thoughts on how to explain a bolter being a rocket propelled round but still ejecting brass and not being shite:
It's a two-stage boosted gyrojet projectile.
When the trigger is pulled, the firing pin strikes the primer, firing the round like a fuckhuge bullet. As the Bolt exits the barrel, fins deploy (like on the Frag-12 round), and the gyrojet kicks in and propels the round to even greater velocity.
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Alright Gen/t/le/g/uys, i'm going to be on my way, but hopefully i've made some helpful suggestions and gotten any of you who are working on such tables a leg up.
Anonymous
>>18839056 >>18839068 A bolter is a gyrorocket that has a gunpowder kick out of the barrel charge.
It is .75 caliber, larger than a 12 gauge, and has an explosive charge on them.
Anonymous
>>18839068 He doesn't really. You're the one who looks stupid for not understanding the argument and yet still wishing to continue.
Anonymous
>>18839093 To be specific, .75 calibre is three-quarters of an inch across.
That's fucking huge for a bullet.
That's almost as big as 20mm, which is, if memory serves, the largest round fired by a mass-produced rifle (The Mechem NTW-20), which is eight-tenths of an inch across.
Anonymous
>>18839118 >still wishing to continue If you thought that, you've read the post incorrectly. He said something wrong and I called it out. Same as with
>NATO >WW2 Anonymous
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>>18839056 You DO realize that according to the numbers GW gives, the most advanced weapons of the 41st millennium are SHITE compared to the crap we had in WWI, right?
Anonymous
Anonymous
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>>18839141 what correction? you said nothing, you repeated his own sentence back to him. that not correcting someone that's being unnecessarily vague.
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Right, I've put on a name and email and I"m going to explain what I was actually doing.
Anonymous
Point of fact: it wouldn't be that hard for someone to make a "bolter". Hell, the MPAT shell probably has a higher mechanical complexity than would be required to make a bolter.>/tg/ sucks at guns worse than magic.
Anonymous
This is why personal directed energy weapons are the way to go for an RPG.
Anonymous
>>18839237 I actually have blue prints started for one, but I think I need a special license to deal with rocket fuel and gunpowder.
Anonymous
>>18839256 There's no license for working with gunpowder, I'm a handloader, I would know. A bolter round would be a solid fuel rocket, which the only regulations on are LAUNCHING solid fuel rockets above a certain size of engine.
Anonymous
>>18839352 What's the certain size of the engine then?
Anonymous
>>18839372 Huge as fuck.
Like, the rockets they launch with the engines I'm talking about are as tall as a grown man, if not moreso.
Anonymous
>>18839352 In your area, perhaps. He didn't say where he lived.
Anonymous
>>18839411 The laws to which I refer are the same all over the country.
Anonymous
>>18839395 Okay then.
I can now get out my blue prints and work on them some more.
Just need to find some rocket engines and find the mass to grains ration that fits.
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>>18839248 We will get to that later.
Anonymous
>>18839414 That's assuming he's in your country. Though since you're assuming that, I'm guessing you're American, in which case I very much doubt that you're correct, as there's always some states which make their own more restrictive laws.
Anonymous
>>18839436 No states in the US have laws regulating access to gunpowder.
Same with rocket engines.
I've looked this stuff up.
But yeah, if he lives outside the US I'm not sure.
Anonymous
>>18839451 ...nigga you trippin
Even sugar rockets at best vary from being questionably legal to you're going to prison. There are also definitely laws governing the transportation, production, sale, storage, and application of smokeless powder.
Additionally, much of this is determined on the state level so laws will vary.
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Additionally, I'm considering making a style 2D tile based roguelike game using a GURPS as the base for the game rules and the weapon generator as the main mechanic.
Think Dwarf Fortress adventure mode, but with more dakka. The setting of the game would be a totally-not-40k-forgeworld planet that's undergoing a civil war/mass looting spree.
>>18839509 >>18839451 >>18839436 >>18839417 >>18839414 >>18839411 >>18839395 >>18839372 >>18839352 >>18839331 >>18839256 Can we actually, you know, get back to the right topic or is this thread a lost cause?
Anonymous
>>18839509 Go to a fucking hobby store.
You can buy solid fuel rocket engines, specifically the ones used in model rockets, as long as you're eighteen, with no paperwork of any kind.
Hell you can buy them at fucking Walmart!
Anonymous
>>18839509 Dude, you just need to be above a certain age and fill out some paperwork to buy smokeless powder.
That's it.
It takes like five minutes.
Anonymous
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>>18839536 As long as you're 18? Oh look, there's one of those laws.
Also, all of those must be below a certain maximum thrust. Shit, if you've got too high of an impulse engine in a rocket you want to fly you've got to clear that shit with the FAA, and before that happens you've got to get a damn license. Damn dude, how about instead of claiming to have researched something you actually do it.
Anonymous
I'm guessing this is a potential result of this random chart.
Anonymous
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>>18839547 Yup, and there's not by chance a huge list of things you can and can't do with said powder on the container? Oh wait, there is. Just an FYI: not following that *is* a federal offense.
Anonymous
>>18838891 A lot of factors which probably can't be completely encapsulated in a tabletop game:
-Terminal ballistic performance
Basically what the bullet does when it enters the target. Sometimes it might just go straight through and leave a narrow wound. Other times the bullet might fragment or tumble and cause a lot of internal damage. Very complicated and has a million factors that could affect this - everything from the angle of the shot, the wind that day, what the target is wearing, minute irregularities in the crafting/loading of the bullet/firearm.
-Shot location.
Obviously hitting the guy in the head will do a lot more than hitting in the arm. However, even though there's plenty of "lethal" targets, the time until death varies pretty largely for each one. In general though you don't necessarily need to kill the target immediately, you just need to incapacitate him, which leads to:
-Psychological state of the target
Someone who's not used to pain might drop or faint just from getting shot at in a non-fatal location. Conversely, someone who's very motivated, tripped up on adrenaline, or on drugs/alcohol, or some combination of the three, might take several hits and keep on fighting.
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>>18840496 These kinds of things can be simulated with a video game though (see: dwarf fortress).
Though I would like to have a high level of detail, I'm not toady.
That said, I think all the main 3 things you listed there could be simulated to some extent.
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>>18840496 Some of the mechanisms I considered for this:
- Shot placement wheel: basically a wheeled table with 20 polygonal segments counting down from the center. The segments would need to be roughly dispersed with vertical priority, because realistic firing deviates more vertically than horizontally.
This way you would be able to roll your shot, and then add or subtract "accuracy" points based on weapons skill and the MOA for your weapon/ammo.
Example:
You have a character firing a 3 MOA weapon/ammo combo, with a 2 point marksmanship bonus. They roll a 17, but they subtract the MOA of their shot, and then add in their bonus and check the location of their shot on the circular figure. Putting this over their called zone of fire (head, or center mass, or what have you) they determine what area of the target (if any) was hit.
>>18840496 Terminal Ballistic performance:
While it won't always simulate observed behaviors in the real world, you can get a rough approximation using stat tables for various chambers, barrel lengths, and action types.
You would assign the ballistic characteristics to bullets, and then assign them percentile modifiers based on the barrel lengths and action types.
Example: 7.62X51 NATO has a pre-assigned MOA of 2.5 and power gradient ending at 1200 meters (the farthest distance it still does damage). You roll a lever-action rifle with a 5" barrel and those figures are there is an (example) 20% reduction of those figures, causing it to become less precise and do less damage with a shorter maximum range.
Gotta run again, but there are some suggestions.
>>18841986 >You would assign the ballistic characteristics to bullets, and then assign them percentile modifiers based on the barrel lengths and action types. THIS.
This is what I want to do. I need the numbers for each thing though.
Anonymous
>>18842171 You should be able to use commercially available DOPE or drop tables, as well as SAMI specs and pressure specifications to approximate those things.
The math is a bit over my head, but if you can standardize it and populate all the info the programming should actually be really simple.
It would be interesting to see how well this emulates actual performance (though the purpose of this IS gaming, not absolute realism).
Anonymous
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>>18840496 Psychological state of the target:
Just have them roll a will/endurance/intelligence/reflex save against dazed, stunned, fear'd, or what have you.
Also, you could just have the targets take their meds.
Working on a manual table now. Anyone have other considerations?
Anonymous
>>18844432 >>18844432 >You should be able to use commercially available DOPE or drop tables, as well as SAMI specs and pressure specifications to approximate those things. If I can find them.
Feel free to link any you know of.
>the programming should actually be really simple. Relatively simple, yes.
>It would be interesting to see how well this emulates actual performance (though the purpose of this IS gaming, not absolute realism). This is probably going to end up Dwarf fortress-esque. Everything is simulated, but not to complete realism.
>>18850027 I know that bullets tumble in a target causing most of their damage, but not all bullets do so at certain ranges.
I mean, the bullets from a heavy machinegun will go right through soft tissue without a whole lot of damage (compared to a bullet that tumbles), apart from the hole.
Working out those ranges would really help.
>>18850247 >heavy machinegun will go right through without much damage This is NOT observed in reality. Heavy machinegun will fuck your shit up. You are best off evaluating the power of the cartridge and then applying "tumbling" as a special modifier to certain kinds of bullets or chamberings particularly susceptible to it. Tumbling often is NOT a good thing.
>>18850326 Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up.
So should over-penetration be simulated or not?
>>18850391 Over-penetration could be best simulated by reducing effected cartridge's overall average damage and apply a bonus to them against armor.
This is most common in "intermediate" rifle cartridges (or projectiles of low mass that gain their energy from very high speed). One that comes to mind is 5.56 FMJ.
>>18850420 Yeah that makes sense.
If one of those bullets penetrates body armor though, would they do more damage than if there had been none, or is that a myth?
Anonymous
>longer barrel length >increase recoil
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>>18850571 Rarely. With firearms there are more exceptions than rules, but rounds that perform well against body armor tend to perform less ideally against naked flesh. This is because bullets defeat armor in one of two ways:
1) Be going REALLY FUCKING FAST with a ITTY-BITTY point of impact. This helps it to penetrate by concentrating the energy on one little point and tearing fabric armors, or cracking plate armors
2) Being REALLY HARD. These rounds typically have metal cores or penetrators to pierce on impact instead of deforming as most every other bullet does
In the case of heavy machineguns, like you mentioned before, they penetrate armor by SHEER ENERGY ALONE as a virtue of their combination of mass AND speed. Those rounds will do large amounts of damage to just about whoever they hit, no matter what they are wearing.
>>18850649 Not a rule, a phenomenon observed under some situation in pistols.
This is referring to the "bore axis" of the pistol being fired, as the longer barrel increases leverage acting against the wrist when it is fired.
The exception, not the rule, but worth mentioning none the less.
Anonymous
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>>18850718 That's not true for long guns at all, though; try shooting a full-length G98 and a short-ass Vz-24 (or a 91/30 and a M1938) back to back, and you'll definitely see the difference a few extra inches of barrel adds.
Might want to add a caveat in there about that, lest OP try to model ALL guns using that tidbit.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
FOR ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT: Go read a RPG called Phoenix Command. If you can't find the books for it, I'll happily upload them to my mediafire for you all, just ask.
Anonymous
You may also want to include rolling for magazine type.
>>18850843 >You may also want to include rolling for magazine type. That is part of the plan
>>18850796 >FOR ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT: Currently it's just me, unless others would like to come onboard as advisers.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18850897 I'd love to come on as an advisor. What do you need advisement on?
>>18850843 There are new Leverevolution rounds someone is putting out with little squishy tips to deal with that whole tube-magazine issue, but yes, this is valid and magazines should generate differently.
When it comes to unjamming you are starting to tool with "skills" which are going to be different in every game world and therefore aren't relevant to what i'm doing.
I'm trying to act here in an advisory capacity the best I can, but when it comes down to it I don't actually want to do the grunt work of digging up statistics and running math to balance weapons in-game.
That would be work!
>>18850917 1. Game/mechanic design.
Pic related is a part of what I'm talking about. It's the WIP for guns.
2. How to translate part one into code. The practical application of the design.
(The game system design part, basically. I'm currently thinking of a percentile system).
3. How guns actually work.
(basically what Access is doing now.)
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18850999 >I'm trying to act here in an advisory capacity the best I can, but when it comes down to it I don't actually want to do the grunt work of digging up statistics and running math to balance weapons in-game. Did it. It's not that hard once you get into the swing of it.
Also, the generator, are you just generating random guns a la borderlands? Or will models be attached to this?
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851054 >3. How guns actually work. Copypasted from somewhere I won't say cause I don't want to promote my own stuff I wrote.
1/?
Different types of firearms accept ammunition in different ways. The box magazine is the most common method for loading
modern firearms. The box magazine is essentially a detachable box that holds a number of ammunition cartridges. The
magazine is inserted into a well on the weapon to load it. When the weapon is fired, it takes a cartridge from the magazine
and sends the bullet down range. After firing, the action is cycled to load the next cartridge. In automatic weapons, this
occurs mechanically as part of the firing cycle. When the magazine is empty, it is removed and replaced with a fresh one.
Secondly, there are revolvers. Instead of getting ammunition from a box magazine, a revolver has a rotating cylinder that
holds the ready ammunition. As the weapon is fired, the chamber revolves to advance the next cartridge to the firing
position. Thirdly, there are belt fed weapons, which fire ammunition from interlinked belts.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851139 2/?
As the weapon is fired, the old
belt link is moved to the side, and the link with the new ammunition comes forward. Finally, there is the internal magazine,
holding ammunition in a non-detachable part of the weapon. Internal magazines include tubular magazines, which consists
of a metal tube running along the barrel, usually underneath it, that holds the ready ammunition. As each bullet or shell is
fired , a spring pushes the next cartridge in the tube back to be fed into the firing chamber. There are also Blind Magazines.
Blind magazines are similar to a box magazines, except that they are built into the weapon and are not removed. Instead, the
action is opened and cartridges are inserted directly into it. Tubular magazines are most common in shotguns, and blind
magazines are used on some precision-target rifles or sniper rifles. After loading the weapon with ammunition, it must be
cocked. This means that the bolt or hammer is drawn back into position and the first cartridge is loaded from the magazine
into the firing chamber. The weapon is then ready to be fired.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851146 >>18851146 3/4
Once the gun is loaded, the shooter pulls the trigger to fire it. Pulling the trigger sets the firing cycle in motion. The trigger
mechanism moves an internal arm or lever, called the sear, which releases the weapon’s hammer or firing pin. The hammer
springs forward, striking the back of the cartridge where the primer is located. The impact detonates the primer, which in
turn ignites the propellant and fires the projectile. With single-shot weapons, that is all that happens. The user must then
manually cycle the action, which accomplishes three things. First, the empty cartridge case is extracted and ejected from the
weapon. Then, the next cartridge in the magazine feeds into the firing chamber, or the user reloads the firearm by hand.
Finally, the bolt closes on the chamber, which seals it, cocks the firing pin back, and readies the weapon for firing again.
Double shot weapons can be fired twice, one for each barrel, before this must take place.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851161 4/4
Fucking flood detectin
On auto-loading weapons (those
that operate semi-automatically or automatically), this process of cycling is carried out by the mechanical action of the
weapon. The action cycles by itself, driven either by the recoil force or the pressure from the propellant gases. For semi-
automatics, the user simply pulls the trigger again to fire another shot and repeat the cycle, until the magazine is emptied
and the weapon must be reloaded. On automatic designs, the action will continue to cycle and fire as long as the trigger is
held down or until the weapon runs out of ammunition. Select-fire weapons are those capable of firing in either
semiautomatic or automatic mode, as desired. Bolt, Pump, and Lever action weapons require the user to work the action
themselves, to remove the used casing, and chamber a new round into the barrel, to be fired again. Single Action firearms
require the hammer to be pulled back manually, which prepares for the next shot to be fired.
Anonymous
>>18850843 >pointy bullets bad in tube magazines Better living through science yo. Pic related.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851054 Also, generally most of your rimfire rounds are originally chambered for rifles, and people made handguns chambered in them.
The only ones i can think that aren't that way off the top of my head is the way defunct .41 rimfire, and (Maybe) the .22 CB and .22 Short
>>18851197 LOL I coulda swore someone mentioned that somewhere... XD
>>18851069 ...You already compiled drop tables and joules at range data for a large body of different chamberings out of standard barrel lengths?
Because if so, man you are awesome.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851216 And! You might want to include more categories than Battle Rifle round, Assault Rifle Round, Centerfire Pistol, and rimfire pistol.
There are quite a ton more categories than those four. Off the top of my head, I'd point to 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, which are "PDW" rounds, poised at delivering a high capacity, armor piercing rounds for operators.
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>>18851260 >>18851069 >..You already compiled drop tables and joules at range data for a large body of different chamberings out of standard barrel lengths? Gib table pls.
>>18850843 >This is important because you cannot have pointy bullets in tube magazines; Ah, but ingame it would be done. Players would just have the good sense never to pick them up.
Your ideas about jamming are also good. Especially the one for auto weapons rolling for each volley; that saves processing power.
Jay !Ip3bP.AEJs
/k/ here.
My unconditional respect for you and the rest of /tg/ for being a board where you can actually be serious in without getting "xDxD omg lel le trolld x3."
>>18851069 >>18851139 >>18851146 >>18851146 >>18851161 >>18851171 Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851260 >You already compiled drop tables and joules at range data for a large body of different chamberings out of standard barrel lengths? Kinda. I took said drop tables and joules at range and composed them to a dice chart that corresponded(loosely) with what one could expect, both on average, maximum, and minimum, that a round could do to your average human person.
tl,dr: I took gun Energies and put them to a dice chart.
But Again, this isn't my thread.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851310 It's cool Bro. We get shit done, haven't you heard?
Jay !Ip3bP.AEJs
>>18851352 I frequent /tg/. Huge W40k tabletop player (pic related; my Kratos Chaplain), but it's good to be back here to see that everything's still running smooth.
>>18851292 Just in case it was overlooked, my recommendation is still to do it by individual chambering and not by a class system. If you try to do it by classes you will be SIMULTANEOUSLY over-simplifying and QUADRUPLING your work on the generator at the same time.
As for the tube magazines with center-fire, you can use a wide variety of rounds without issue (.357 MAG, .44 MAG, and .45 LC lever-actions are REALLY common) and do you really want to go that far into the weeds?
d20Modernfag
>>18850843 So let's see, that's a 40mm ammo option that fires a... 2d4 damage autofire attack with no standard penalty for not having Advanced Firearms Proficiency (autofire/burstfire proficiency) and can't be combined with the Strafe Feat... not too shabby.
>>18851330 The real trick is being able to have the raw values on hand so that when weapons are generated you can ADJUST those performance ratings for barrel length and action type.
That's why we need the raw data ;)
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851387 We have our spats, but generally, we run smoothe.
We even self regulate.
>>18851388 This. All of my this.
>>18851397 You know, something always irked me about D20 Modern. Why didn't they just call it Autofire instead of "Advanced Firearms Proficency?" It seems so lazy.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>18851352 Well, so long as you don't mention that WWI IN SPAAACE game...the editions that shall remain nameless....mercenaries...katanas...a sword's weight...boobplate...fetishes in games...-4 strength...and well...you get the picture.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18851407 >The real trick is being able to have the raw values on hand so that when weapons are generated you can ADJUST those performance ratings for barrel length and action type. ...good luck with that. But Wikipedia is your friend, trust me on that.
As is a reloading manual.
d20Modernfag
>>18851424 or 'Improved Firearms Proficiency' like every other second-tier feat suffix, but that makes me wonder, what would "Greater Firearms Proficiency" entail?
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851446 Knowing D20 Modern? Most likely give you a +1 to all firearms, or some shit.
Anonymous
>>18851397 As I am not familiar with d20 modern, most of that is gibberish to me.
My interpretation was something for the beginning explosives/ordinance expert who couldn't be bothered to put points into standard firearms. It gives him a CQB option that won't blow him up along with the bad guys. It's essentially a shotgun that shoots .22 sized pellets
d20Modernfag
>>18851512 izat a bad thing? I recall you promote that superspies version of the rules or whatever (wasn't quite my cup of tea)
Also, now wondering if I can take the info from Ultramodern Firearms and compile the raw gundata into a procedural generation table.
Anonymous
>>18851292 Eh, PDWs are nothing but glorified assault rifle rounds. The only real difference is how fat the round is--there's no real design difference beyond that, like how they may have a little more powder in the load, that's just to deal with the extra mass of the bullet and that still doesn't put its ballistics in the same ballpark as a full rifle round. Their performance is different from the more "traditional" assault rifle rounds, but not as much as you'd think.
Really the categories that are listed basically comprise most all rounds you're likely to come across that aren't some crazy hyper-specialist round. I mean hell, we could spend all day arguing about what's the best deer hunting round (my money for where I live is a 7-30 Waters) and if you consider the amazing range of performance differences between hunting calibers/loads you realize just how small the difference between a PDW and assault rifle round--or really most any of the exotics and their generic classification actually are.
>>18851446 >>18851512 In the game system that I was visualizing I was thinking marksmanship would be a point skill and every 10 or 15 points would grant a +1 bonus. There would be a shot placement table maxing out at 20 (point of aim) and counting down and out from center mass with primarily vertical dispersion.
This way rifle accuracy can be applied as a penalty (along with environmental factors) the same as other bonuses with the marksmanship skill representing fundamentals of marksmanship, proper leading, proper windage, proper range estimation, ect.
The end result would be you could roll a D20, total the environmental factors, and have a round impact without stopping your whole game to calculate.
>>18851388 Well I was planning to go from where I was now to specific chambering.
>>18851292 >. Off the top of my head, I'd point to 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, which are "PDW" rounds, poised at delivering a high capacity, armor piercing rounds for operators. If you can tell me the specific difference between those and other rounds, then tell me. As far as I know, PDW rounds are pistol size with more power. If that is the case, then my current chart just needs a modifier for pistol rounds.
The reason that I want there to be SOME level of class system is that it allows a) easy and easily adjusted programming. b) it's easier to balance.
>>18851558 Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851539 >It's essentially a shotgun that shoots .22 sized pellets >MFW 12 ga. 00 Buckshot shoots 9 .33 sized pellets Makes a little bit of sense on how you stated it, but it's almost always a better idea to put points in actual guns.
Quoted By:
>>18851558 PDWs are a weapon class with the characteristics of SMGs but chambered in a rifle cartridge instead. Just because the most popular example (the P90) is in a "proprietary" cartridge that is more like a pistol than a rifle doesn't make the "class" less valid.
The problem with the class model is that it is needlessly complicated with no gameplay benefits.
d20Modernfag
Quoted By:
>>18851539 >checks feat lists; Exotic Firearms (greande launchers) requires Personal and Advanced Firearms Proficiency ...okay... I think I found my first official house-rule subject for d20Modern
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851551 Less super spies and more an actual fix on a lot of things I felt were broken/pants-on-head retarded with D20 Modern, and a stab at what I believe they were trying to do with it.
And that's actually a good idea. The book Guns Guns Guns would help here as well.
IT's a rather rare book, so here's a PDF of it:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ue1ffgq89zzh0et Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>18851558 Excuse me, I completely didn't bother reading your measurements. I was thinking about the 6.8mm SPC
Take what I said and swap it around to higher velocity through lower mass for the bullet for the smaller one and as stated for the 5.8 (sure you don't mean 6.8?--which is just a pure man-stopper that actually has worse AP characteristics than 5.56). In any event, it those rounds still fall well within the performance envelope for "assault rifle".
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18851580 They're not pistol rounds, plain and simple. They're Small rifle rounds, fired at a much hotter velocity than a pistol round would be fired at.
They're also both built from the ground up to be armor-piercers, and were scaled back(The 5.7, anyway), to non-AP rounds for civilian use.
So in short. They're Small rifle rounds that are made to penetrate armor.
Anonymous
>>18851589 You are correct; While the .22 are indeed smaller than 00 buck, I would imagine there's collectively more powder behind them, and less falloff at range.
Of course, the "barrels" in the insert for the M79 are much shorter than conventional .22 barrels, which fucks velocity in the ass
All of this is of course nullified by the fact that you don't have to break open (most) shotguns to reload them between shots, and you can get 4 shotshells in the space it takes for one 40mm shell. If you had a China Lake you might be on to something, but those are super fucking rare.
I better try to explain. Please excuse me if this makes no sense.
The reason I have "classes" is because it makes generation easy. how?
Boolean variables. The way it works now is simply a series of True/False statements. This makes things easy, because there are only two possible variables.
>>18851579 >I was thinking marksmanship would be a point skill and every 10 or 15 points would grant a +1 bonus Yeah, I was thinking something similar.
On that note, I had an idea about recoil.
Basically, a gun's recoil value would represent how much the barrel moves out of control with each shot. For an easily controllable weapon this would be a decimal value. For example, 0.25. With this, you would be able to fire 4 shots until the recoil became noticeable enough to give you a negative modifier of -1 to your aim.
For a gun with lots of recoil, for example, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiWn-0gKOm8 Would have a recoil value of, say, 5. This would mean that trying to fire at max ROF while standing is very unlikely to land hits.
Recoil values would be modified by things like posture (standing, crouching, prone) and special attachments. A bipod would greatly reduce effective recoil.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851748 >You are correct; While the .22 are indeed smaller than 00 buck, I would imagine there's collectively more powder behind them, and less falloff at range. Actually, There are about 2 grains of powder in your typical High Velocity(I feel generous, today), .22 LR round. There is about 20-25 grains in your typical 12 Gauge 2.75 inch 1 oz. load shotgun shell.
Considering that the .22 powder is rifle powder, and the shotgun is pistol/shotgun powder, You'd get a much better burn out of a shotgun, than that tinly ass barrel thing.
d20Modernfag
>>18851798 really, it just needs about double the amount of rounds in the canister, but that may or may not break the user's hand(s); I have no idea how much recoil 10x .22lr fired at once create
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851829 >I have no idea how much recoil 10x .22lr fired at once create I'd assume not much. It is .22, after all. All in all, it's a good idea, but i'd stick to an underbarrel grenade launcher attached to a rifle(Or a shotgun) rather than carry a stand alone, and try to use specality shells.
Anonymous
>>18851798 Bravo sir.
Your knowledge in this subject far surpasses my own and I am glad to have had this discussion with you.
I aspire to someday be as knowledgeable and patient as yourself.
>>18851772 I was thinking of using "encumbrance" as a factor which combines other ease-of-handling factors with recoil in a way that would allow you to apply direct penalties, but hadn't though about it that much.
Also, positionings in my experience have a MASSIVE influence on shot placement, I was intending to have standing be a large penalty, kneeling significantly lesser, and prone no penalty.
I was also intending CQB and extreme range to be a different marksmanship skill, because in real life they are very different skill sets.
I was thinking of refire rate as just that, how many shots are fired per "turn".
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851898 I couldn't help but grin. Thank you good sir. And all it takes is an interest in the subject these days: You've got the key to knowing anything you want as deep as you want, for as long as you want, with the internet.
Also, picture related.
Quoted By:
>>18851898 >>18851986 Alright, now that we're all friends here, can we get this thread archived?
This is a great info resource, but I don't want to go caching X number of versions of this thread.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18851930 >I was intending to have standing be a large penalty, kneeling significantly lesser, and prone no penalty. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I can't hit shit when I'm prone. I shoot best when I'm standing.
>>18852051 That is very abnormal as when you are standing there's a big blobby mass of pulsating blood and muscle, and inflating and deflating lung underneath you.
Have you had formal training of any kind?
d20Modernfag
>>18851865 autofire can get pretty nasty though, you don't deal with deviation so the Hornet's Nest is a viable CQB option for any 40mm launcher; also the launcher as a stand-alone or accessory isn't a longarm so you don't take the -4 penalty for firing on an adjacent target, but by that logic neither do MG gunners and LAW operators; then again, leveling any of these things on an assailant in close range is bound to produce hesitation enough to negate the penalty... possibly.
Second, autofire targets squares and so only has an AC of 10 rather than the target's AC, which is bound to be much higher.
Third the target then must save against Reflex DC15, which IIRC he doesn't get or is heavily penalized on if surprised, which is possible to probable in a fast-paced CQB situation. The only downside is that you're dealing 2d4 damage, the upside is, again, not deviation on the blast of rounds, and also that you're targeting four 5x5 squares which can contain multiple targets each (four guys lined up at a long firing port could take up ~10ft of space or less) all of which take that damage for a potential 16 targets in a seriously crowded room. given that most NPCs aren't going to be more than 2nd or 3rd level means an upper maximum of about 45hp on the toughest guys with the average toughest hitting around 28 for the toughest on the average, with more typical targets being more likely to average 9 or 10 overall by 2nd level.
With my personal twist on Vit & Wounds, they'd be down an average of 5 wounds if surprised, out of the typical 10w that's a -5 penalty to all checks, saves, rolls, and melee damage with a good chance of being unconscious and bleeding out.
http://chanarchive.org/request_votes Lets get this shit archived via link above.
Just drop in the thread URL and click "vote"
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852064 Nope.
Unless you count being taught by my father to shoot, formal.(Was a medic in Vietnam, turned down invitation to be a marksman)
But I can't get a good cheek weld when I'm prone
>Breathe in >Breathe out >Breathe in >Breathe out >Breathe in >Breathe out, squeeze trigger d20Modernfag
>>18852051 Which hand is your dominant hand, which hand do you shoot with?
Which eye is your dominant eye, which eye do you aim with?
Using your non-dominant eye or hand severely penalizes your accuracy, using the incorrect side for both makes it virtually impossible to hit anything.
I know this because I'm left-handed and right-eyed, my neck is routinely kinked up after firing a pistol and people have asked my buddies at the range if I've broken my neck when I'm prone with a rifle.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852079 You know what they also don't clarify?
Using strafe feat with the hornet's nest.
>Third the target then must save against Reflex DC15, which IIRC he doesn't get or is heavily penalized on if surprised They don't. At all. Which didn't bother me as much, since you are kinda dodging wild fire, but D20 Modern's ability scores get out of hand VERY fast.
Also,
>.357 Magnum, 38 Special,10mm, .45 ACP and 9x19mm all do the same damage >2d6 >why.jpg It hurts to play that game, I'll be honest with you.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852123 Right and right.
Yeah, lying prone just kills my accuracy. Standing up? No problem. Even Kneeling. But Prone? I can't hit shit with a longarm.
I haven't tried firing prone with a handgun, though.
d20Modernfag
>>18852168 Look at the range increments between them, it might bear out differences there, though that analysis would be complicated by the platform itself.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852189 >Look at the range increments between them, Okay.
>.45 ACP, 30 ft. >9x19mm, 30 ft. >.38 Special, 30 ft. >.357 Magnum, 40 ft. >10mm Auto, 30 ft. ...yeah...
>>18852051 >>18852188 What is the longest distances you fire out to?
Expert marksmen all experience the highest precision in the prone position (the exception being pistols because they are difficult to handle properly prone).
What is your average group sizes prone and standing? I'm getting a bit off-topic but this phenomenon confuses me greatly.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852189 Oh! They're all handguns. I tried to to steer off from that.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852220 Hundred and fifty yards.
Bolt action .30-06(The model escapes me)
I can generally get a 4-5 inch group(Horrible, I know, but I'm not a rifle shooter), when I'm standing, but I'll outright miss the paper/target when I'm prone.
Personally, I'll stick to my shotgun and handgun, most of my shooting, if there neeeds to be any, will be up close.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852220 This may or may not play into it, but I'm shooting free. No fancy bipod, not even a sandbag.
So yea, there's that.
Then again, I'm not a marksman.
>>18852214 These rounds are all ballistically active FAR beyond those range estimates, and every round on there can be accurately fired in reality to 50 yards and PAST.
This isn't a good baseline for this system.
d20Modernfag
>>18852214 Hmm, okay, now we're going to look at fro ma mechanics standpoint.
We've got d4~d12 for die type in damage and all basic slugthrowers deal two dice of damage, so...
light pistols deal 2d4, medium pistols 2d6, and heavies 2d8, which is the same as the lighter assault rifles, the rarer heavier rifles fire 2d10 rounds, and finally 2d12 is left for the heaviest machine guns and sniper rifles with most standing at the HAR 2d10 value.
And there's the explanation, the mechanics don't have a wide enough range of die variables to account for differences in similar rounds, so my guess is just that they group rounds in into categories based vaguely in performance at the target range. Getting any more detailed would have probably made firearms more complicated than they already are with action and magazine size to take into consideration, so we've got an action-lite firearms system in an action-lite game; tis not the riddle of steel my fags and Anons, but neither is D&D.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852288 Indeed they can, but there's a bit more to that than what I let on.
The way D20 (As a system) works is that each weapon has a range increment. Every attack within that range incriment incurs no range penalty, for every range increment beoynd the first one, the shooter takes a -2 to the attack, to a maximum of a -20(As 10 range incriments are as far as they let you go)
It was/is done because you can not accurately simulate some of the ranges that rifles are capable, on a game table.
It's the same deal like how Battletech has to shorten their ranges to make the fukin' thing playable.
>>18852278 >>18852258 Comfort is one of the biggest players on your precision. If you are more comfortable firing standing you may be more likely to hit than with a prone position you find uncomfortable, but you have a performance ceiling in the standing.
You will not hit a target reliably at 400 yards or further from the standing.
From the prone? Shots to 800 are not uncommon.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852308 > so we've got an action-lite firearms system in an action-lite game There are many things I'd call D20 Modern, but light on the action is not one of them.
The way I see it, they kinda went easy/lazy mode on the firearms. The Reason I belive this is because they didn't just call them light pistol, heavy pistol, all that jazz, they actually stated them out on the sheet, gave specific models.
..but now that I think about it. I would've accepted it more if they /had/ gone that route.
Because 9mm and 10mm do not equal each other. At all.
Put simply, it was people who didn't quite understand/invest too much/care about firearms, designing a game with firearms.
Not my cup of tea outright.
d20Modernfag
>>18852288 Range increments work on a x/10 mechanic, where every full increment yields roughly -10% (-2 modifier for all but shotguns, those take the penalty in damage, slugs take the penalty in both) to overall accuracy out a max of 10 range increments; taking the Far Shot feat extends a weapon's range by +50% which is, according to the designer's notes article up on WotC (might be done by now) is the estimated maximum effective range. Somewhere between 4~5 (-8~-10 penalty) RI is supposed to be the optimal range, so at a 30ft RI you're looking at an preferred engagement range of about 120ft~150ft for the novice shooter up to 180ft~225ft for a distance marksman who is also likely to be more skilled with weapons in general and have specialist feats that boost his accuracy with his preferred pistol of choice, assumedly in the 30ftRI selection.
Maus
>>18851930 >Also, positionings in my experience have a MASSIVE influence on shot placement, I was intending to have standing be a large penalty, kneeling significantly lesser, and prone no penalty. The problem with that is that you're going to have to add a penalty for almost every shooting action in the game. Most guys are, y'know, not prone in most fights unless they're expecting to stay there for quite some time or need the cover.
Now everyone has to continually subtract an amount from their roll in the one stance that they're going to be in for 50% of their career. It's a teeny bit of math, yes, but even one second shaved off trying to figure out how accurate your accurate cleans a whole ton of clutter and potential misunderstanding from something so basic as shooting.
That said, it's an interesting way of looking at the problem, but I'd honestly have kneeling as the baseline, not prone.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852324 I'm also much more comfortable firing my mossberg 500 than the .30-06, so there is that too.
And I practice and drill in my house on the move, standing, or kneeling, rather than laying prone, waiting for an intruder to come to me.
But, that makes a bit of sense.
d20Modernfag
>>18852364 hmm, if it bothers that much you can put +1/-1 modifiers on munitions where appropriate, Future/Future Tech even has a gadget system that allows you to do just that, just give 10mm a free 'large bore' gadget, etc, etc
>>18852364 >>18852370 I'd rather not base the game off a D20 system. There's no reason to when it comes to computers.
d20Modernfag
Quoted By:
>>18852414 Oh, right, I kind of derailed your thread, sorry; that shell just made me start thinking in d20 mechanics and it spun out from there.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852407 115gr 9x19mm = 570 J
150gr 10mm Auto = 983 J
It's a little bit more than a +1...
A +4, perhaps?
>>18852379 I think we're mixing our implementations here. I started the thread to try to help develop a system with a deep basis in reality, with the purpose of eventually using it in my own gaming adventures with realistic combat.
Modern firearms combat is all about individual movement techniques: transitioning from the standing to the prone quickly and firing quickly, moving and firing from the kneeling, ect.
In actual combat you don't fire at targets 150 yards away in the standing because you are a larger target and your shots are less precise as a result, you take the kneeling.
Firing at 300 yard targets is difficult in the kneeling, and VERY difficult in the standing.
I see where you are trying to integrate with another system here, but I am intending to build a NEW system, with gameplay balanced to match reality to a closer margin (though obviously it can never be perfect and still be a fun game).
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
>>18852414 I am most definitely okay with this.
I've got to head out soon, so go download that book guns guns guns up here:
>>18851642 And you gentlemen take care. If you want to track me down, send me an email at [email protected]<script type="text/javascript">
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>>18852456 Hey man, can you put a whole bunch of these here? I don't want to hunt them down myself but they will be indispensable.
Jay will prolly drop a large round list, but we are using popular American cartridges, along with NATO and Warsaw ammo types.
d20Modernfag
>>18852456 Eh, +1 is huge, recall that in D&D a +5 magic weapon is intended for near-epic level characters.
As another point of reference, a lot of d100 systems modify difficulty in +/-5% to +/-10%, anything above that is pretty exceptional a circumstance for the bonus.
Each +/-1 is roughly a 5% difference, I'd say +/-2 maximum, +4 is right out the realism window especially when you set things like massive damage at 10 points.
Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852495 I just went to wikipedia, and coppied their info from the website.
I'm tired, and I have to go to work soon.
Also, I urge you strongly to go read, cover to cover, a rpg called Phoenix Command.
Seriously. Go read it.
Jay !Ip3bP.AEJs
Quoted By:
Hey gangsters.
>>18852414 >>18852480 >>18852506 I'm planning on using D20 for the hit system and using a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT system for damage.
Haven't really rounded that out yet, but with firearms shot placement makes a MUCH bigger difference in shot effectiveness than damage, so i'm tackling these issues one at a time.
Has everyone voted to archive this thread already?
http://chanarchive.org/request_votes Sweet Soul Bro !!H5XdMKmBv5G
Quoted By:
>>18852506 >especially when you set things like massive damage at 10 points. I completely forgot about that shit. I haven't touched any WotC D20 anything in years.
But yeah, D20 Modern. Not my bag. Gotta sleeep.
4 ichy tasty
Maus
>>18852474 >I see where you are trying to integrate with another system here, but I am intending to build a NEW system, with gameplay balanced to match reality to a closer margin (though obviously it can never be perfect and still be a fun game). I'm not trying to integrate it with anything, I'm just pointing out that it's not a great idea to have something as fundamental treated special. Standing is a baseline characteristic.
That said, again, it's an interesting and different way to look at the problem. If you think that the penalty standing gets is reasonably easy to grasp, or that you don't care about something as minor as assigning a -2, -4 penalty to standing shooters every time, then go for it.
>>18852553 Yes, speaking from a soldier's mindset firing from the standing as a "given" is counter intuitive and won't be common in my games.
d20Modernfag
>>18852543 Actually if you want more realism, you should look at the variant 3d8 'bell curve rolling' rules on one of the SRD sites, then again I find it overly complicated for the desired effect. You could simulate the same effect by averaging Xd20 (two or three should be fine) and using the individual rolls for hit placement, etc.
If you're going for hit 'location is more important than round size', maybe have weapons listed as Damage Values like in Sweet soul Bro's suggested book Guns Guns Guns and combine weapon DV with hit location bonuses/penalties/special effects.
d20Modernfag
>>18852603 Agreed, set kneeling as a baseline and penalize standing while boosting prone if you want to promote people going for the kneeling as much as possible.
In my experience, players tend to ignore minor bonuses, but will go to the ends of the earth to avoid equally minor penalties.
So, following this logic, if you want them capitalizing cover and firing position at every possible opportunity, penalize standing out in the open and set laying prone in moderate cover/concealment as the 'zero-mark' for hit and defense modifiers.
>>18852611 I'm thinking about this problem fundamentally differently than seems the norm here, so i'm sure the system I end up using will be considerably different from what you are used to seeing in tabletop games.
I'll keep you apprised of what I come up with.
d20Modernfag
Quoted By:
>>18852651 Probably, I tend to work within a game's establish mechanics and concepts as much as possible after attempt several systems from the ground up and it gives me insight into why some things were done as they are, but it's also a limiting factor in cases where people want to go outside the bounds.
I'm that stodgy constitutional conservative who attempts to talk down both streamlining the laws and remaking them entirely with just a hint of the old mechanisms.
Quoted By:
>>18852650 The hit modifiers will be applied as described here:
>>18851579 Additionally, defensive properties will not necessarily be a character specific trait as much as a passive trait attributed to their size and then (if they are hit) their clothing/armor.
Quoted By:
>>18852480 Will do. Thanks for your help.
>>18852650 Hmm, I making kneeling the baseline makes sense as it is the middle of the 3 positions.
I haven't read through the last ~15 posts properly yet, I will when I get back.
Maus
>>18852603 >Yes, speaking from a soldier's mindset firing from the standing as a "given" is counter intuitive and won't be common in my games. Sure. In a variety of situations, standing isn't the most intuitive for shooting. For long ranges with little foliage or terrain, it'll probably get you killed. But there are 2 things I'd like to point out before you make your decision.
1) If you want your game to be effective in a range of situations and to remain flexible, you probably shouldn't have all the penalties all clustered at either end. If you're in a long range environment, then suddenly transition into urban combat and only prone doesn't get a penalty, you just instantly increased the modifier overhead that everyone's gotta be mindful about. Any game, whether its magic dragon debates or absolutely realistic terminal ballistics, should hew towards being snappy and responsive. You don't want to have your difficult mechanics on something as mundane and common as standing, kneeling, or going prone. Otherwise you lose precious time for the more fun things that need a bit more mechanics.
2) In my experience over the years, trying to calculate a difference is /always/ more cumbersome and involved than adding a sum. Furthermore, the bigger the number is, the more cumbersome the mechanic becomes. The less people have to deal with and think about the basics, the better. It's as simple as that.
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>>18852846 >>18852846 I think you might have missed a couple posts back there somewhere.
When entering a city or just generally into close ranges the CQB skill will be invoked as opposed to the marksmanship skill (they ARE two completely different schools of shooting) wherein no penalty would be incurred for standing, you would be bonused for kneeling, and prone really wouldn't be practical to use often. The steepest penalties in CQB marksmanship would be if you were moving, really.
I'm still not sure whether to break down extreme long range into its own skill (past 800 meters) or if that is just extra work, but it is ALSO a different combat mindset by far.
